Old Testament Texts / Another Look
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23-07-2017, 07:36 PM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
Yeah I know. it was aliens.
Fuck.
Too bad there are no scholars that agree with that made up, dot-connecting BS.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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24-07-2017, 07:47 PM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(18-06-2017 10:01 AM)thereverent1 Wrote:  Great stuff- thanks.
Most fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Mormons completely discount archaeology and biblical textual analysis. So as richly informative as the information is, it won't do anything to dissuade believers from claiming that the Bible or the Koran or the Book of Mormon is the word of God. The only thing that can do that is to highlight those portions of the scriptures that say or imply things they don't believe.
I have an acquaintance who is a fundamentalist Christian. I argued that the old and new testament books represented two very different visions of reality. For example, the old testament authors didn't believe in anything Jesus said about the forgiveness of sins. Jesus said that we should forgive the sins of those who sin against us 70 times 7 times (Matthew 18:22), and that the only unforgivable sin is the sin of blasphemy (Matthew 12:31). But there is no passage in the old testament that says anything like that. Instead the old testament authors described a completely different process for the forgiveness of sins called a "sin offering". That was a ritual sacrifice of a perfect bull, and it's a type of ritual that no Jewish synagogue or Christian church performs today. This point made a real impression on her because she had to admit that it's true (even though she couldn't bring herself to saying so). But I can tell you from experience that arguments on the basis of archaeology, however well founded, will never have the same kind of impact. And my argument is much simpler, more direct, and it is based on the actual biblical text, which is the only thing that Christian fundamentalists actually trust.

I agree. Whether or not the Old Testament accounts are entirely factual and supported by archaeology has nothing to do with the religion and it's teachings. You could spin a religion around a comic book character and people might follow it.

What this debate about archaeology seems to be about seems to me to have more to do with ethnology. All national groups seem to want to portray themselves as unique or distinct and also as descending from Adam and Eve or some other original couple, and want, therefore, to claim some sort of moral or political primacy.

However, morality flows from a world view and the exercise of reason in relation to human behaviour, not archaeology or ethnology, so I have no idea what the real point of this thread is. DNA studies are illuminating the fact that all humans descend from a common group of hominids and before that we were all swinging from the trees. There's nothing divine about it. What makes humans different from other animals is that at some point we developed the power to reason through moral issues and behave in a way which was different from animals. Some religions hang on to their animalistic, superstitious past, others depart from that. Modern rational humanism leaves all of that behind. It's certainly interesting to read about archaeological discovery, but trying to tie this in with a preconception about world religion and the primacy of a particular religious or ethnic group either to build them up or tear them down is more likely to result in a distorted interpretation of the archaeology to suit one's own purposes.
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01-08-2017, 12:05 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
Wow Bucky, you went all out on this post. Nice.
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25-10-2017, 11:08 PM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
Quote:You could spin a religion around a comic book character and people might follow it.


Xtians have done exactly that!

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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26-10-2017, 09:44 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
In other news how much should I charge for an Aaronite prophecy? Tongue

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18-07-2018, 10:39 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
I don't know where to put this so please move if there's a more appropriate place.

Daughter's mother-in-law is a believer but doesn't belong to a church and claims to not like religion...but she is involved with a couple of Bible study classes as well as other church activities (that don't include actually attending services). I think it's more about free food and the entertainment the local Baptist church brings in for Happy Circle on the first Monday of each month.

Anyway...she mentioned she was thinking about quitting one of the Bible studies because one of the women doesn't agree with her on something. The MIL doesn't believe in tithing...because it's not in the New Testament and the New Testament replaces the old testament. That's her rationalization and she's sticking to it.

For you Bible scholars out there, what is the deal with the New Testament replacing the old? I have never heard of that before and my daughter was looking for me for some sort of response to this.

Anyone have anything?

See here they are, the bruises, some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. -JF
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18-07-2018, 10:47 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(18-07-2018 10:39 AM)Anjele Wrote:  I don't know where to put this so please move if there's a more appropriate place.

Daughter's mother-in-law is a believer but doesn't belong to a church and claims to not like religion...but she is involved with a couple of Bible study classes as well as other church activities (that don't include actually attending services). I think it's more about free food and the entertainment the local Baptist church brings in for Happy Circle on the first Monday of each month.

Anyway...she mentioned she was thinking about quitting one of the Bible studies because one of the women doesn't agree with her on something. The MIL doesn't believe in tithing...because it's not in the New Testament and the New Testament replaces the old testament. That's her rationalization and she's sticking to it.

For you Bible scholars out there, what is the deal with the New Testament replacing the old? I have never heard of that before and my daughter was looking for me for some sort of response to this.

Anyone have anything?

Not a bible scholar by any means, but it is a pretty common xian claim that Jesus "fulfilled the law" and that puts Christians under a new covenant which replaced the Mosaic covenant in the OT. That's why they don't have to get circumcised and can east shellfish, etc.

Of course, that either means that the 10 commandments are no longer in effect or you have to cherry-pick what is and isn't valid. I've heard that the new covenant only applies to the sacrificial laws but they still cherry-pick what is and isn't covered.

Basically, it's a convenient way to disregard a lot of the more obviously immoral garbage from the OT.

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18-07-2018, 10:56 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(18-07-2018 10:47 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(18-07-2018 10:39 AM)Anjele Wrote:  I don't know where to put this so please move if there's a more appropriate place.

Daughter's mother-in-law is a believer but doesn't belong to a church and claims to not like religion...but she is involved with a couple of Bible study classes as well as other church activities (that don't include actually attending services). I think it's more about free food and the entertainment the local Baptist church brings in for Happy Circle on the first Monday of each month.

Anyway...she mentioned she was thinking about quitting one of the Bible studies because one of the women doesn't agree with her on something. The MIL doesn't believe in tithing...because it's not in the New Testament and the New Testament replaces the old testament. That's her rationalization and she's sticking to it.

For you Bible scholars out there, what is the deal with the New Testament replacing the old? I have never heard of that before and my daughter was looking for me for some sort of response to this.

Anyone have anything?

Not a bible scholar by any means, but it is a pretty common xian claim that Jesus "fulfilled the law" and that puts Christians under a new covenant which replaced the Mosaic covenant in the OT. That's why they don't have to get circumcised and can east shellfish, etc.

Of course, that either means that the 10 commandments are no longer in effect or you have to cherry-pick what is and isn't valid. I've heard that the new covenant only applies to the sacrificial laws but they still cherry-pick what is and isn't covered.

Basically, it's a convenient way to disregard a lot of the more obviously immoral garbage from the OT.

So you can throw out Genesis and all that by saying it no longer counts...'cause NT?

See here they are, the bruises, some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. -JF
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18-07-2018, 11:15 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
The thing is, .... there is no thing. Tongue

Paul says there is a "New Covenant", (with Jesus).
That's nice, if that's all you look at.
The "Old Law" (the old covenant was said in the OT to last forever), so that's one problem, and Jesus said "For verily I say unto you, till. heaven and earth pass, one jot or one. tittle shall in no wise pass from. the law, till all be fulfilled."
So you get to pick whichever one happens to suit your fancy.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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18-07-2018, 11:19 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(18-07-2018 11:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The thing is, .... there is no thing. Tongue

Paul says there is a "New Covenant", (with Jesus).
That's nice, if that's all you look at.
The "Old Law" (the old covenant was said in the OT to last forever), so that's one problem, and Jesus said "For verily I say unto you, till. heaven and earth pass, one jot or one. tittle shall in no wise pass from. the law, till all be fulfilled."
So you get to pick whichever one happens to suit your fancy.

Good grief... Weeping

I gotta figure out a way to explain to my daughter so she can explain it to MIL...since her MIL is an idiot in all respects, it needs to be explained with crayons and puppets.

See here they are, the bruises, some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. -JF
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