Old Testament Texts / Another Look
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07-07-2014, 03:47 PM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(05-07-2014 10:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 08:04 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  BB. This may take the thread in a slightly different direction and perhaps it has been discussed already, my apologies if it already has, but I'm having an online debate on the topic of the Book of Daniel and when it was written. My understanding is that it was written much later than most bible nuts think and many prophecies are written after the fact. One bone of contention is the reference to Darius the Mead and Darius the Great and whether these were two different people living at separate times. Do you have references I can cite with this information as most of the information online is from the perspective of bible believers and therefore complete rot.

This is pretty much the consensus view of mainline scholarship.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...aniel.html
"Some people have referred to this motif of apocalypse literature as "prophecy after the fact," because by putting it in the mouth of a person who ostensibly lived a long time ago and letting that person tell the story it has the quality of predicting the future. Well, if he was right about those events, just think about what he's telling us about our own future and he gives us the confidence that we know what God has in store for us, that we know the plan of God for human history ... "

First of all, Daniel was excluded from the Hebrew canon, so we know it didn't exist in it's present form at that time, (or at the VERY LEAST, was not considered as having an importance equaling other texts) at 200 BCE. That is the very earliest it could have been written. It's really a three part text, and is an assemblage of 3 sources, at least. The "Book of the All-Virtuous Wisdom of Joshua ben Sira" (the Book of Ecclesisiasticus) quotes every other book of the Jewish canon, but not Daniel, so it's dating is probably more like 180 BCE. It does contain older folk-tales from the Babylonian exile period, but it also has the "new" understanding of "prophesy as prediction" which was not always the case, but arose in the (same) Apocalyptic period. (There was a shift in the understanding of "prophesy" from "advice to the people of the SAME day" to prediction of halcyon days, and bad outcomes.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278
It's very obvious in Chapter 11, where the writer obviously KNEW Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the King of Syria, but did not know about his death, the time period it was written in. The writer knew the armed campaigns Antiochus made in Egypt, in 169 and 167 BCE, the sacking of the temple, and the setting up of the "abomination of desolation" and how they set up the stronghold inside Jerusalem called Akra. There is no way someone in 500-600 BCE could possibly have known that stuff. But the author missed the temple reconstruction and the death of Antiochus, or how it happened, in 164 BCE. The really important thing however is the "theology" and "philosophy" in Daniel, reflects the Apocalyptic period, and NOT the earlier period, which was significantly different. That's a kind of long subject to go into, but very interesting. It happened basically AFTER the Exile, because the social situation (pre-exile) had been disrupted, and new understandings had arisen, (which BTW had a direct impact on what was to soon follow, when the Way sect (Christianity) arose as an organic flow from precisely this period.
"The concepts of immortality and resurrection, with rewards for the righteous and punishment for the wicked, were raised for the first time in Judaism in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE" from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel#Authorship
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

http://www.bsw.org/biblica/vol-82-2001/d...-p244.html
This makes the most sense to me, as the first part was apparently written much eariler, or taken from something done much earlier, and this fits neatly with
having a Babylonian origin for the first few chapters.
Hope that helps. I will have to see what text books I have for the period. Pretty much anything by John J. Collins on the subject is good.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/chris...html#alias
http://infidels.org/library/modern/chris...aniel.html
http://www.bibleorigins.net/DanielFailed...iesOf.html
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies

Thanks Mr. B. I also have the Oxford Companion to the Bible by Metzger and Coogan who also date the book of Daniel around 167 BCE. I think Metzger was a Christian, not sure about Coogan, but I like to point out to believers that there are many Christians who don't swallow the Daniel prophecy crap. It probably won't change their minds but I point it out anyway.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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08-07-2014, 07:45 PM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(07-07-2014 03:47 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 10:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  This is pretty much the consensus view of mainline scholarship.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...aniel.html
"Some people have referred to this motif of apocalypse literature as "prophecy after the fact," because by putting it in the mouth of a person who ostensibly lived a long time ago and letting that person tell the story it has the quality of predicting the future. Well, if he was right about those events, just think about what he's telling us about our own future and he gives us the confidence that we know what God has in store for us, that we know the plan of God for human history ... "

First of all, Daniel was excluded from the Hebrew canon, so we know it didn't exist in it's present form at that time, (or at the VERY LEAST, was not considered as having an importance equaling other texts) at 200 BCE. That is the very earliest it could have been written. It's really a three part text, and is an assemblage of 3 sources, at least. The "Book of the All-Virtuous Wisdom of Joshua ben Sira" (the Book of Ecclesisiasticus) quotes every other book of the Jewish canon, but not Daniel, so it's dating is probably more like 180 BCE. It does contain older folk-tales from the Babylonian exile period, but it also has the "new" understanding of "prophesy as prediction" which was not always the case, but arose in the (same) Apocalyptic period. (There was a shift in the understanding of "prophesy" from "advice to the people of the SAME day" to prediction of halcyon days, and bad outcomes.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278
It's very obvious in Chapter 11, where the writer obviously KNEW Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the King of Syria, but did not know about his death, the time period it was written in. The writer knew the armed campaigns Antiochus made in Egypt, in 169 and 167 BCE, the sacking of the temple, and the setting up of the "abomination of desolation" and how they set up the stronghold inside Jerusalem called Akra. There is no way someone in 500-600 BCE could possibly have known that stuff. But the author missed the temple reconstruction and the death of Antiochus, or how it happened, in 164 BCE. The really important thing however is the "theology" and "philosophy" in Daniel, reflects the Apocalyptic period, and NOT the earlier period, which was significantly different. That's a kind of long subject to go into, but very interesting. It happened basically AFTER the Exile, because the social situation (pre-exile) had been disrupted, and new understandings had arisen, (which BTW had a direct impact on what was to soon follow, when the Way sect (Christianity) arose as an organic flow from precisely this period.
"The concepts of immortality and resurrection, with rewards for the righteous and punishment for the wicked, were raised for the first time in Judaism in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE" from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel#Authorship
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

http://www.bsw.org/biblica/vol-82-2001/d...-p244.html
This makes the most sense to me, as the first part was apparently written much eariler, or taken from something done much earlier, and this fits neatly with
having a Babylonian origin for the first few chapters.
Hope that helps. I will have to see what text books I have for the period. Pretty much anything by John J. Collins on the subject is good.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/chris...html#alias
http://infidels.org/library/modern/chris...aniel.html
http://www.bibleorigins.net/DanielFailed...iesOf.html
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies

Thanks Mr. B. I also have the Oxford Companion to the Bible by Metzger and Coogan who also date the book of Daniel around 167 BCE. I think Metzger was a Christian, not sure about Coogan, but I like to point out to believers that there are many Christians who don't swallow the Daniel prophecy crap. It probably won't change their minds but I point it out anyway.

Tell them the interpretation of omens was forbidden in Leviticus.
They're practicing an abomination. Tongue

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08-07-2014, 08:56 PM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
One need only delve into Babylonian mythology which was a repository for earlier Mesopotamian myths to find a lot of this OT shit. Everyone knows of Gilgamesh but there are others and we can never know how many have been lost to time.

The Ludlul Bel Nimeqi deals with a poor bastard who gets fucked over by the gods...much like "job."

http://www.piney.com/BabTabuBel.html

Quote:In about1700 B.C. a Babylonian poem treats of a mysterious affliction which overtook a righteous man of Babylon, and has been compared with the book of Job:

I'm beginning to think there is nothing original in this OT shit at all.

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09-07-2014, 12:26 PM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(08-07-2014 07:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 03:47 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Thanks Mr. B. I also have the Oxford Companion to the Bible by Metzger and Coogan who also date the book of Daniel around 167 BCE. I think Metzger was a Christian, not sure about Coogan, but I like to point out to believers that there are many Christians who don't swallow the Daniel prophecy crap. It probably won't change their minds but I point it out anyway.

Tell them the interpretation of omens was forbidden in Leviticus.
They're practicing an abomination. Tongue


Ah yes. Good ole Leviticus. This is off topic but I'm reading a book called 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed. Pretty good book. Interesting stuff went on back in those days.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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09-07-2014, 12:55 PM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
I have a great book that gets into this pretty deeply. I havent read through it all to be honest because it is huge, and I usually deal with dismantling the NT more often then the OT. But here is the name just in case anyone wants more info on this area..

Reading the old testament; an introduction by Lawrence Boadt (1984)

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"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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12-07-2014, 06:26 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
An emerging theory of Judaism is that it is phallic worship of the Tau which gives the name "Daud" or David.

Jerusalem is an interesting word. Wiki has other spellings of it including Urusalem

"A city called Rušalim in the Execration texts of the Middle Kingdom of Egypt (c. 19th century BCE) is widely, but not universally, identified as Jerusalem.[24][25] Jerusalem is called Urušalim in the Amarna letters of Abdi-Heba (1330s BCE).[26]"

But if it comes from a consonantal language then it would seem, to me, to be RSLM and the R would be a reverence to fire and takes us back to the "fire lord" or horus/haris/aris.

Is there anything on this anywhere? It is obvious what the last part of the name is but there isn't a lot on the first part, perhaps because it creates a tie to an earlier pagan or Egyptian mythology??
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12-07-2014, 06:42 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(12-07-2014 06:26 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  An emerging theory of Judaism is that it is phallic worship of the Tau which gives the name "Daud" or David.

Jerusalem is an interesting word. Wiki has other spellings of it including Urusalem

"A city called Rušalim in the Execration texts of the Middle Kingdom of Egypt (c. 19th century BCE) is widely, but not universally, identified as Jerusalem.[24][25] Jerusalem is called Urušalim in the Amarna letters of Abdi-Heba (1330s BCE).[26]"

But if it comes from a consonantal language then it would seem, to me, to be RSLM and the R would be a reverence to fire and takes us back to the "fire lord" or horus/haris/aris.

Is there anything on this anywhere? It is obvious what the last part of the name is but there isn't a lot on the first part, perhaps because it creates a tie to an earlier pagan or Egyptian mythology??

But it has a "u" and an "s" in it. Clearly it's the precursor to the United States.
Facepalm

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09-03-2015, 02:14 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2015 03:06 PM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
Horus according to Wiki was: Horus is recorded in Egyptian hieroglyphs as ḥr.w; the pronunciation has been reconstructed as *Ḥāru, meaning "falcon".

As you are aware, Jerusalem was also spelled "Herusalem" which suggests that the religion of that place was the cult of Horus since the Jews came from Egypt. As you have pointed out, the Old Testament was merely something written up by scribes whereas the religion of the times was what people actually believed/worshipped.

I have said many times on this forum that there is a tendancy to ignore language in discussing religion and not to see similarities or identities between different words or concepts simply because of different spellings or pronunciations. For instance, the CH sound at the beginning of Christ, could be either a hard K sound or a soft CH sound as in "church" or a back of the throat sound as in the Scottish "loch" or an "h" as in "hundred".

You need to read about the "centum-salem isoglosses" and actually understand what that means before making a f.cking a.. of yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum%E2%8...m_isogloss

Incidentally, "America" is supposedly taken from the name of an explorer called "Amerigo", but, Amerigo is an Italian version of "Heinrich" or "Harry" which, if you add the prefixes "ap" or "ab", meaning "of" you get "Parry" which is how the French (Franks) pronounce Paris and also gives you "Abgarus" who is the Edessan "Jewish" king who Ralph Ellis identifies as a proto-Frankish model of Jesus the Son of (ab) God (garus/horus).

And here is Horus holding his Christian cross: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus#media...anding.svg
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09-03-2015, 04:44 PM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(09-03-2015 02:14 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Horus according to Wiki was: Horus is recorded in Egyptian hieroglyphs as ḥr.w; the pronunciation has been reconstructed as *Ḥāru, meaning "falcon".

As you are aware, Jerusalem was also spelled "Herusalem" which suggests that the religion of that place was the cult of Horus since the Jews came from Egypt. As you have pointed out, the Old Testament was merely something written up by scribes whereas the religion of the times was what people actually believed/worshipped.

I have said many times on this forum that there is a tendancy to ignore language in discussing religion and not to see similarities or identities between different words or concepts simply because of different spellings or pronunciations. For instance, the CH sound at the beginning of Christ, could be either a hard K sound or a soft CH sound as in "church" or a back of the throat sound as in the Scottish "loch" or an "h" as in "hundred".

You need to read about the "centum-salem isoglosses" and actually understand what that means before making a f.cking a.. of yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum%E2%8...m_isogloss

Incidentally, "America" is supposedly taken from the name of an explorer called "Amerigo", but, Amerigo is an Italian version of "Heinrich" or "Harry" which, if you add the prefixes "ap" or "ab", meaning "of" you get "Parry" which is how the French (Franks) pronounce Paris and also gives you "Abgarus" who is the Edessan "Jewish" king who Ralph Ellis identifies as a proto-Frankish model of Jesus the Son of (ab) God (garus/horus).

And here is Horus holding his Christian cross: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus#media...anding.svg

Sick necrophile.

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09-03-2015, 08:12 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2015 03:40 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(09-03-2015 02:14 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Horus according to Wiki was: Horus is recorded in Egyptian hieroglyphs as ḥr.w; the pronunciation has been reconstructed as *Ḥāru, meaning "falcon".

As you are aware, Jerusalem was also spelled "Herusalem" which suggests that the religion of that place was the cult of Horus since the Jews came from Egypt. As you have pointed out, the Old Testament was merely something written up by scribes whereas the religion of the times was what people actually believed/worshipped.

I have said many times on this forum that there is a tendancy to ignore language in discussing religion and not to see similarities or identities between different words or concepts simply because of different spellings or pronunciations. For instance, the CH sound at the beginning of Christ, could be either a hard K sound or a soft CH sound as in "church" or a back of the throat sound as in the Scottish "loch" or an "h" as in "hundred".

You need to read about the "centum-salem isoglosses" and actually understand what that means before making a f.cking a.. of yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum%E2%8...m_isogloss

Incidentally, "America" is supposedly taken from the name of an explorer called "Amerigo", but, Amerigo is an Italian version of "Heinrich" or "Harry" which, if you add the prefixes "ap" or "ab", meaning "of" you get "Parry" which is how the French (Franks) pronounce Paris and also gives you "Abgarus" who is the Edessan "Jewish" king who Ralph Ellis identifies as a proto-Frankish model of Jesus the Son of (ab) God (garus/horus).

And here is Horus holding his Christian cross: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus#media...anding.svg

I already explained to you elsewhere, when you made similarly ridiculous claims about another (different) name you said it was based on, which was as equally false as this pile of uneducated dung, the meaning and origins of the name of that city. You really think you can literally make up anything, and sling it at us, and we will buy your garbage ? Still at it, connecting imaginary dots, I see, db. Weeping

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