Old Testament Texts / Another Look
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18-09-2012, 12:47 AM
RE: The Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(13-09-2012 07:15 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(13-09-2012 07:12 AM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  You have actually placed words in my mouth that was never part of the discussion, but supposedly arguments that you have previously encountered in discussion with others.

The quote is from a mere two posts before, big guy. Dodgy
I was basically referring to the claim "what if you are wrong? position". That was not part of my argument. Of course our decisions have implications and we will have to live with it, but playing a gambling game is not the solution - taking your chances. So you decide to become a Christian just to play it safe? That will never make you a Christian as mere knowledge and a decision to "join" the Christian community is irrelevant to salvation.
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18-09-2012, 12:58 AM
RE: The Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(12-09-2012 01:45 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 12:26 AM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  Thanks BB. Your knowledge of the subject (ancient texts, history) far exceeds mine and I would really be out of my depth to argue on this.
However, as a layman, it seems to me that one possibility for corresponding information is that it actually reports the same issues, with each having a different "spin". In other words, the issues being reported is not by implication false. There is this game that little children play called "telephone", where a message is repeated and the end result is either garbled or have little bearing on the initial message or..if it was very carefully repeated and "controlled" by the initial person, could be accurate.
The Bible claims to be truth and one can then ask the question - has what is reported as truth ever been proven as lies? No doubt, questions are raised from time to time and doubts cast.
My belief in the God of the Bible rests on faith but without having to put my head in the sand and ignoring issues. That is why I am delighted with your comments. As Christians, we often only discuss issues with other Christians and thus work from the same point of reference.
That there are questions that are very difficult to answer, goes without saying, but this does not by implication invalidate the Christian faith. As proof, it is obvious that (other) highly intelligent persons with the same set of facts that you have, come to a different conclusion.

I can hook up a USB 3.0 stick to my computer and transfer 16GB of text (about 72,000 bibles) off of it in a matter of minutes, upload it to my server (which is actually a virtual machine on a shared network of thousands of physical processors with data storage in three different datacenters, on several RAID1 and/or RAID5 hard drive arrays, synced every couple of minutes), and distribute it to a thousand people at once, almost anywhere in the world, at up to 2mb/s with a data loss or corruption rate of about one bit in ten trillion, thanks to unambiguous multiplexed error/noise-resistant communication protocols like SCTP. I can store this data for thousands of years on flash memory, for tens of thousands with hardened flash, with no data loss or corruption. The data can be copied an infinite number of times, and if 4096-bit RSA encrypted with my private key it could be 100% guaranteed that you are reading my original, unaltered, legitimate version with no possibility that it has been edited or altered by another entity.




I am superior to your god at communication. Bow down before me.

well stop leaving them in my frikken hotel rooms then

The secret to a happy life is lowering your expectations to the point where they are already met
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18-09-2012, 01:04 AM
RE: The Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(13-09-2012 06:29 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 10:17 PM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  Jesus proved Himself with miracles, and claimed He was God, and no fault could be found with what He did and said, they still crucified him.
It is not a case of evidence, an intellectual decision. It is a change of heart. If you are honest with yourself, you will realise that deep down it is rebellion. It is not because you are worse than any other person. We are all sinners, but by the grace of God, he chose us - those who will believe.

Of course Phaedrus, this is all total bullshit ..the usual party-line to justify the incomprehensible nonsense of a position with no evidence or honest justification.

a. There were many, (about 20 that we know of), Apocalyptic preachers running around at the time of Yeshua ben Josef, (Jeebus), who ALL were seen to be doing healings and miracles. So miracles, were proof of nothing, other than the general gullible, and uneducated state of the populace in general, in a pre-scientific age , where the literacy rate was about 5%, or less.
Jesus’ miracles are of course not open to investigation today. But the same goes for you – you cannot prove it never happened. If the miracles never happened (water into wine, raising the dead etc), it would have sunk the Christian faith there and then as it could easily have been shown as fraud. If it was a “sleight of hand” or some other illusion, it would certainly be reflected in Jesus’ general conduct – as the case would be with his followers.
The question arises – why does miracles not happen anymore? I do not know, and it seems people sometimes mention stories that appear without substance in an effort to prove miracles. I will not judge these stories without proper investigation, but distance myself from any misrepresentation of fact to try and “prove” miracles. There are instances such as that of Brother Yun (The Heavenly man), that anyone can investigate. There are others that have been mentioned to me but never as a piece of “bragging” or worse.
Literacy was never a substitute for integrity as is daily evidenced in newspapers . Thus irrelevant .
Gullibility is not limited to “pre-scientific age” – also evidenced by the many scams that are successful in our “scientific age”. Thus also irrelevant
None of the points mentioned above actually discredits Jesus and miracles associated with him and 2 actually raise issues which are irrelevant – red herrings.
Quote:b. The city of Jerusalem at the time was built on a "temple based" economy. There were fees for the sacrifices, fees for the priests, fees for festival entry, fees for ritual bathing, fees for staying over night, etc, etc. Jewish custom required that all ritual fees be paid in Jewish currency. Thus there were many "money changers", as Roman coinage was the official currency during the occupation, and had to be changed. Yeshua threatened the economic stability of the city. There was a standing order in the Pax Romana to summarily execute trouble makers, without a trial. Thus when Yeshua caused the incident in the temple, the authorities, (who had already been looking for him), arrested Yeshua, and executed him, as a public nuisance, (which of course he was). That assumes he even existed. There is good evidence he did not, and was a "combo" job of a few people, and was an entirely mythical person. Obviously the trials in the gospels were made up, as each one is different. One says he was silent, one has him giving a long speech, (and of course there were no witnesses, who would have participated in the writings, in either the High Priest's quarters, or the Roman official buildings).
I am not quite sure where you get your “facts” from, but Jesus was executed as a result of his claims to be God/Son of God, and handed to the authorities. His execution was “authorised” to appease the crowd – Jewish leaders - to act as they deemed fit in terms of their “law”. Pilate himself found him not deserving the death penalty/crucifixion.
“Mat 26:64 Jesus saith to him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say to you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
Mat 26:66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
Jesus was a “troublemaker” if you wish to put that title to a man that speaks the truth and exposes error. Jesus took the Pharisees to task and for instance said:
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do: he was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”
To suggest that Jesus was opposed to the authorities is easily disposed of by his answer to the Pharisees and Herodians when they wanted to trap Him defying the authorities:
Mar 12:15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
Mar 12:16 And they brought it: and he saith to them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said to him, Cesar's.
Mar 12:17 And Jesus answering, said to them, Render to Cesar the things that are Cesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they wondered at him.
Quote:c. Yeshua never claimed divinity. The term "son of god", was a common honorific term which was used, and applied to many famous "good guys", ..politicians, generals, preachers, possible messiahs, etc etc. Yeshua NEVER said he was god. If he had, he would have been stoned on the spot. Each of the gospels, now in the canon, has a VERY different concept of what the "divinity" was, and when it was "granted" to Yeshua, and what that meant. For example, in Mark, Jeebus was a human, always and only, and later raised to a divine status, (much as Roman emperors were ... ie "down -> up"). In John, the writers, (being Gnostics), portrayed him as an always, (pre-existent) divine being, who temporarily took on the corrupt human form, (while REMAINING divine), and then gave up the corrupt form, and returned to just divine status. ("Up -> up+down -> back to up). In Luke and Matthew, he was seen to give up divine status, and take on human form, and return to divine status. ("Up -> down -> up). Each, a very different concept.
You are mistaken. The Pharisees, chief priests and elders knew exactly what Jesus claimed – hence the claim of blasphemy.
There are quite a number of passages that clearly states Jesus’ claims:
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then will he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews to him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then they took up stones to cast at him
Mat_9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick with the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go to thy house.
It is fairly common knowledge that Jesus’ disciples initially (as did the Jewish nation) considered Him to be the deliverer in terms of prophecy and expected an earthly king. They acted cowardly by running away when Jesus was taken prisoner. Peter even renounced association with Jesus . This however all changed when Jesus was raised from the dead. They became bold and even died for their faith – something that would hardly happen if they knew He was a fraud. To this day, people die for their faith – often not in heroic conditions but as simple little people that have come to believe in Jesus as their Saviour.
Quote:d. The usual crap about "rebellion" (which is a fundamental rejection of the teaching of Jesus who said "judge not, lest ye be judged"), is part of the "salvation"/fall/sin paradigm, which seeks to explain the world in basically non-Biblical terms, (as the Old Testament..see link above was about Chaos, NOT "sin"), as the world view at the time was unaware of the scientific world-view, which is so much more successful, as an explanation of the Human Condition. It also "judges", with out really knowing, or attempting to know, a completely honest intellectual position, and puts an emotional position ahead of thought, and says no one can "honestly" reject the crap, because they have no other explanation for why someone would reject the bullshit they see as obvious. It's called "sef-righteousness", which is basically a psychological response to a perceived inferior position. It's also ignorance of their OWN theology. In the Christian theological system, faith is a virtue, freely granted by their "holy spirit", (capriciously to some, and not to others). So their own system asserts it's not a moral failing. Most Christians just know nothing about their own systematics.
Biblical terms?
The Bible explains something in non-biblical terms? That we all use the same vocabulary –whether Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or atheist is very obvious but the Bible cannot by definition explain things in non-biblical terms. If the same terms occur in non-biblical sources, it does not make it non-biblical.
Rebellion: I could have said “enmity” against God, which would have been more technically correct, but also implying rejection of authority and thus rebellion
Rebellion/rejecting God is contrary to Jesus teaching “judge not?” Please explain this.

Judgement:
Let’s see what Jesus say:
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits: Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles: Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
This implies judgment – but not condemnation. The issue is actually that we will all be judged by the same standard – and we will all stand guilty. As previously stated, we are saved by grace and not because we are righteous in ourselves.
Stating that which you accept as fact is not judgement; neither is stating a fact contrary to the belief of another party. If I were to judge you as you imply, I would say that I condemn you to hell. I do not make that claim.
Sin: Any act/omission/thought contrary to the law. “for by the law is the knowledge of sin”. According to this standard, we are all guilty, including you.
Selfrighteousness would mean regarding yourself righteous and others inferior? You will know that your claim of “acceptance of Selfrighteousness” in the Christian faith is a false statement if you accepted the Bible as source. If you just considered others as having a position contrary to yours, will you classify that as self-righteous ? - and how would you rate yourself ? I would suggest that making rude remarks about another’s belief system is self-righteous?

Do you suggest that the position that some people reject God (or alternatively the fall/sin/salvation paradigm) is contrary to predestination? If so please explain. If not, please explain what you claim.
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18-09-2012, 01:35 AM
RE: The Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(12-09-2012 12:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Exactly. But with out strict control by the game initiator, the game goes off the rails. The Bible had no controller, and we KNOW that, and there is plenty of evidence for that.
Please supply verifiable proof.
Quote:Where exactly does the Bible "claim to be truth", and if it's there, how did that claim get there, in the first place ? THAT is the point. The writer claimed truth it for HIS OWN writing. It's circular, and without merit, without an EXTERNAL authentication. There is none.
You will know that what can be verified (for instance through archaeology) confirms faith in the writings. The existence of God cannot be empirically proved or disproved.
Quote:You believe, because you believe, because you want to believe, because you NEED to believe. Why is that ?
Ultimately, it's not a religious question. It's a PSYCHOLOGICAL question of where that "need" arises from. Neuro-Psych has an answer for that.
That is maybe what you want to believe. That you choose not to believe in Christ will then also be a psychological issue? Or is it just theists that have this “issue”? But maybe you can justify your position with some data?
Quote:Your "other people believe it" is the Argumentum ad Populum fallacy. "Other people" believed the world was flat. They were ALL wrong.
No my friend, it is simply stating a fact. Your argument just shows that what you believe may not be true, that is all. Using the same example, some people believed the earth was not flat.
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18-09-2012, 05:08 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
I see above lots of references to "son of man" but none to "son of god".

I am a son of man (and woman) and I've learned a few magic tricks so does that make me divine too?

The Roman emperors were men before they died and got deified, implying that god-ness was not quite the same thing in polytheist times. We should bring that back... very comforting for grieving relatives to say, "he/she has joined the gods" instead of having to explain all that "heaven" nonsense.

Great work Bucky.

Good to have something plausible documented that new and questioning atheists can go to (be pointed to)

... despite the unreadable font and the typos.... we forgive you of those sins.

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18-09-2012, 06:33 AM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2012 02:33 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Old Testament Texts / Another Look
Nice try. How pathetic. That's it ?
(18-09-2012 01:04 AM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  I am not quite sure where you get your “facts” from, but Jesus was executed as a result of his claims to be God/Son of God, and handed to the authorities. His execution was “authorised” to appease the crowd – Jewish leaders - to act as they deemed fit in terms of their “law”. Pilate himself found him not deserving the death penalty/crucifixion.

Prove it, and DO NOT use your Bible. Seriously ? Seriously ? You think you're going to come here and quote Babble quotes, a faith text to us, and expect me to swallow it ? Give me a break. As I said each of the gospels is DIFFERENT with respect to the so called "trial". There is NOT ONE shred of external evidence for it. If one says he was silent, and one says he gave a speech...one of them is lying. Which one is lying ? Who was present at the trial to witness it, if they all ran away ? Why did NOT one gospel claim WHO the witness was ?

As I said, (obviously YOU have never carefully read the gospels), the divinity claims are different in each gospel, and there is no dispute about that by scholars. Any claim, PLACED IN JESUS' mouth by the author of a faith document, in no way prove he ever made that claim. Apparently, you know nothing about Biblical scholarship. All it proves, is the author is making the claim. And you have not dealt with the differences. STOP QUOTING BABBLE quotes to a-theists. You need external sources. A document by a believer, to remind himself what he believes, (a gospel), is worth nothing to a non-believer.

(18-09-2012 01:04 AM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  Judgement:
Let’s see what Jesus say:

Lets not. You mean, "what did the authors of the gospels MAKE Jesus say, in their texts, and the words the PUT in his mouth". You have addressed NONE of the question,with ANY external evidence. All you did was do the usual Babble quoting.

BTW...I do not "choose" to not believe in god. I have no choice. Does your god want me to *say* I believe, even if I don't ? Unless one is insane, belief is based on credible evidence. If not, in today's world, it's called a "hallucination", or "delusion". There is not one shred of evidence, for anything you are claiming, and in fact VERY GOOD historical evidence for the fact that, in a known historical process, humans made up all the bullshit. By your standards, I must also believe there is a 1957 Chevy, orbiting Pluto, as there is no evidence, one way or the other, for it.

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Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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18-09-2012, 06:39 AM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2012 06:49 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(18-09-2012 01:35 AM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  Please supply verifiable proof.

Sorry, YOU made the claim that something unusual happened, (that there WAS a controller). YOU must do the proving. Until then we assume, the usual happened, and there was none.

The title's "son of man" and "son of god" were not specific titles to ONE person. As I pointed out, they were general honorifics, and actually the "son of man" was MORE specific than "son of god", as it may have referenced the apocalyptic "expected one", (that the Essenes were awaiting). As I said, the divinity claim is often today understood in 21st Century terms, and people who make that claim simply show their ignorance of Ancient History, and the cultural context.

(18-09-2012 01:35 AM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  That is maybe what you want to believe. That you choose not to believe in Christ will then also be a psychological issue? Or is it just theists that have this “issue”? But maybe you can justify your position with some data?

Gladly.








(18-09-2012 01:35 AM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  No my friend, it is simply stating a fact. Your argument just shows that what you believe may not be true, that is all. Using the same example, some people believed the earth was not flat.

Nice try at deflection. Didn't work. YOU made your claim, based on the fact that other people believe it. THAT is not evidence. YOU must provide evidence. The fact that other people believe something is NOT evidence.

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Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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18-09-2012, 06:54 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(18-09-2012 05:08 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I see above lots of references to "son of man" but none to "son of god".

I am a son of man (and woman) and I've learned a few magic tricks so does that make me divine too?

The Roman emperors were men before they died and got deified, implying that god-ness was not quite the same thing in polytheist times. We should bring that back... very comforting for grieving relatives to say, "he/she has joined the gods" instead of having to explain all that "heaven" nonsense.

Great work Bucky.

Good to have something plausible documented that new and questioning atheists can go to (be pointed to)

... despite the unreadable font and the typos.... we forgive you of those sins.

Please tell me where the typos are, and what font would be better. I'll fix it.
Thanks.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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18-09-2012, 06:56 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(18-09-2012 06:54 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Please tell me where the typos are, and what font would be better. I'll fix it.
Thanks.
I think the standard font would be better suited.

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18-09-2012, 07:06 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(18-09-2012 06:56 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-09-2012 06:54 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Please tell me where the typos are, and what font would be better. I'll fix it.
Thanks.
I think the standard font would be better suited.

Done. PM me the typos...I'll fix them, and/or suggest another font.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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