Old Testament Texts / Another Look
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18-09-2012, 07:15 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(18-09-2012 07:06 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(18-09-2012 06:56 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I think the standard font would be better suited.

Done. PM me the typos...I'll fix them, and/or suggest another font.
I'm currently working on rewriting your entire text a bit for an easier understanding. I'll send you my suggestion later on. Thumbsup

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18-09-2012, 08:50 AM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2012 09:10 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
"we have piped into you, and you have not danced". Luke 7:32, (straight out of Aesop's Fables).
Nope, Bucky don't dance, (to that tune, anyway).

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/010...istian.php

"Divinity". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinity
A meaningless term, which means "not human", or "other than human" or "super-human". If there are "super-humans", there could be an infinite number of super human "levels", of divinity. Jesus himself, never claimed "divinity". Claiming equal status to Yahweh, for a Jew, was unthinkable. The divinity claims were NOT established in Christianity until much later, and the PROOF is that at the Council of Nicaea, they fought like cats and dogs over it, what it meant, and how it worked. HUMAN beings cooked up the idea, and then FOUGHT over it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Mark's divinity claim : No direct claim. Divinity "bestowed later". Assumed from "signs" which were MISINTERPRETED by all who saw them, until later. Obviously, if the eye-witnesses didn't understand them, they are not obvious proofs. Also PROOF that God made a mistake, and was NOT omniscient : Mark 12 : 1-11 "So "He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, 'They will respect my son.' ". (Obviously they didn't).

Paul's divinity claim : (same as Matthew and Luke), was divine, gave it up, took it back :
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:5-11)

John's divinity claim : Always divine, took on corrupt (Gnostic view) body, gave it up, went back to just divine.
I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I AM (John 8,58)
John lived on an island rich in psychedelic botanicals. John's gospel is the ONLY one where divinity is directly claimed.
Jesus was a mushroom.







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12-12-2012, 06:01 PM
RE: The Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(03-09-2012 08:27 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Tongue


Don't forget to mention how the guy who wrote Matthew basically went through all the old Jewish prophecies looking for anything that could be written into Jesus' story in any way to make him seem more legitimate, and how Paul didn't write the letters attributed to him since he was actually illiterate, and how Peter and Luke, who weren't even Jesus' disciples but lived after he died, basically made up their own religion around Jesus' teachings, and how the guy who wrote Revelations was probably on hallucinogenic mushrooms, and how the entire bible was essentially assembled by committee at the Council of Gnicea.


Basically all the New Testament horse shit as well as the Old. Wink


Hi...can you give me a link discussing Paul being illiterate? I haven't heard that before!
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15-12-2012, 11:39 PM
RE: The Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(13-09-2012 06:29 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 10:17 PM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  Jesus proved Himself with miracles, and claimed He was God, and no fault could be found with what He did and said, they still crucified him.
It is not a case of evidence, an intellectual decision. It is a change of heart. If you are honest with yourself, you will realise that deep down it is rebellion. It is not because you are worse than any other person. We are all sinners, but by the grace of God, he chose us - those who will believe.

Of course Phaedrus, this is all total bullshit ..the usual party-line to justify the incomprehensible nonsense of a position with no evidence or honest justification.

a. There were many, (about 20 that we know of), Apocalyptic preachers running around at the time of Yeshua ben Josef, (Jeebus), who ALL were seen to be doing healings and miracles. So miracles, were proof of nothing, other than the general gullible, and uneducated state of the populace in general, in a pre-scientific age , where the literacy rate was about 5%, or less.

b. The city of Jerusalem at the time was built on a "temple based" economy. There were fees for the sacrifices, fees for the priests, fees for festival entry, fees for ritual bathing, fees for staying over night, etc, etc. Jewish custom required that all ritual fees be paid in Jewish currency. Thus there were many "money changers", as Roman coinage was the official currency during the occupation, and had to be changed. Yeshua threatened the economic stability of the city. There was a standing order in the Pax Romana to summarily execute trouble makers, without a trial. Thus when Yeshua caused the incident in the temple, the authorities, (who had already been looking for him), arrested Yeshua, and executed him, as a public nuisance, (which of course he was). That assumes he even existed. There is good evidence he did not, and was a "combo" job of a few people, and was an entirely mythical person. Obviously the trials in the gospels were made up, as each one is different. One says he was silent, one has him giving a long speech, (and of course there were no witnesses, who would have participated in the writings, in either the High Priest's quarters, or the Roman official buildings).

c. Yeshua never claimed divinity. The term "son of god", was a common honorific term which was used, and applied to many famous "good guys", ..politicians, generals, preachers, possible messiahs, etc etc. Yeshua NEVER said he was god. If he had, he would have been stoned on the spot. Each of the gospels, now in the canon, has a VERY different concept of what the "divinity" was, and when it was "granted" to Yeshua, and what that meant. For example, in Mark, Jeebus was a human, always and only, and later raised to a divine status, (much as Roman emperors were ... ie "down -> up"). In John, the writers, (being Gnostics), portrayed him as an always, (pre-existent) divine being, who temporarily took on the corrupt human form, (while REMAINING divine), and then gave up the corrupt form, and returned to just divine status. ("Up -> up+down -> back to up). In Luke and Matthew, he was seen to give up divine status, and take on human form, and return to divine status. ("Up -> down -> up). Each, a very different concept.

d. The usual crap about "rebellion" (which is a fundamental rejection of the teaching of Jesus who said "judge not, lest ye be judged"), is part of the "salvation"/fall/sin paradigm, which seeks to explain the world in basically non-Biblical terms, (as the Old Testament..see link above was about Chaos, NOT "sin"), as the world view at the time was unaware of the scientific world-view, which is so much more successful, as an explanation of the Human Condition. It also "judges", with out really knowing, or attempting to know, a completely honest intellectual position, and puts an emotional position ahead of thought, and says no one can "honestly" reject the crap, because they have no other explanation for why someone would reject the bullshit they see as obvious. It's called "sef-righteousness", which is basically a psychological response to a perceived inferior position. It's also ignorance of their OWN theology. In the Christian theological system, faith is a virtue, freely granted by their "holy spirit", (capriciously to some, and not to others). So their own system asserts it's not a moral failing. Most Christians just know nothing about their own systematics.
Fuck you're good.
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15-12-2012, 11:45 PM
RE: The Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(13-09-2012 07:18 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 10:17 PM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  It is not a case of evidence, an intellectual decision. It is a change of heart. If you are honest with yourself, you will realise that deep down it is rebellion.

BTW, it realiZe.
Maybe he or she is Australian...

Realise and realize are different spellings of the same word, and both are used to varying degrees throughout the English-speaking world. Realize is the preferred spelling in American and Canadian English, and realise is preferred outside North America.
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15-12-2012, 11:52 PM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2012 03:58 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: The Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(18-09-2012 12:47 AM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  
(13-09-2012 07:15 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  The quote is from a mere two posts before, big guy. Dodgy
I was basically referring to the claim "what if you are wrong? position". That was not part of my argument. Of course our decisions have implications and we will have to live with it, but playing a gambling game is not the solution - taking your chances. So you decide to become a Christian just to play it safe? That will never make you a Christian as mere knowledge and a decision to "join" the Christian community is irrelevant to salvation.
Do you really think yours or anyone else's half-baked arbitrary interpretation of ancient texts will buy you a place in an imaginary heaven? Why would a hypothetical god give a flying fuck about what you think or do? I suggest you remove your head from your arse hole.

PS. I don't wish to offend you personally. The salvation paradigm is a toxic doctrine that causes untold damage to psychological health. It's used by churches to control people's behavior. In my opinion to preach it to vulnerable people, and in particular children, is immoral. It won't bother anyone here on the forum though.
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16-12-2012, 08:17 PM
RE: The Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(18-09-2012 06:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nice try. How pathetic. That's it ?
(18-09-2012 01:04 AM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  I am not quite sure where you get your “facts” from, but Jesus was executed as a result of his claims to be God/Son of God, and handed to the authorities. His execution was “authorised” to appease the crowd – Jewish leaders - to act as they deemed fit in terms of their “law”. Pilate himself found him not deserving the death penalty/crucifixion.


Prove it, and DO NOT use your Bible. Seriously ? Seriously ? You think you're going to come here and quote Babble quotes, a faith text to us, and expect me to swallow it ? Give me a break. As I said each of the gospels is DIFFERENT with respect to the so called "trial". There is NOT ONE shred of external evidence for it. If one says he was silent, and one says he gave a speech...one of them is lying. Which one is lying ? Who was present at the trial to witness it, if they all ran away ? Why did NOT one gospel claim WHO the witness was ?

As I said, (obviously YOU have never carefully read the gospels), the divinity claims are different in each gospel, and there is no dispute about that by scholars. Any claim, PLACED IN JESUS' mouth by the author of a faith document, in no way prove he ever made that claim. Apparently, you know nothing about Biblical scholarship. All it proves, is the author is making the claim. And you have not dealt with the differences. STOP QUOTING BABBLE quotes to a-theists. You need external sources. A document by a believer, to remind himself what he believes, (a gospel), is worth nothing to a non-believer.

(18-09-2012 01:04 AM)Fromgenesis Wrote:  Judgement:
Let’s see what Jesus say:


Lets not. You mean, "what did the authors of the gospels MAKE Jesus say, in their texts, and the words the PUT in his mouth". You have addressed NONE of the question,with ANY external evidence. All you did was do the usual Babble quoting.

BTW...I do not "choose" to not believe in god. I have no choice. Does your god want me to *say* I believe, even if I don't ? Unless one is insane, belief is based on credible evidence. If not, in today's world, it's called a "hallucination", or "delusion". There is not one shred of evidence, for anything you are claiming, and in fact VERY GOOD historical evidence for the fact that, in a known historical process, humans made up all the bullshit. By your standards, I must also believe there is a 1957 Chevy, orbiting Pluto, as there is no evidence, one way or the other, for it.


Well said Bucky! Our friend has swallowed the babble story hook, line and sinker, never once questioning what's written. How boring for him...going through life with blinkers on.
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18-12-2012, 09:18 PM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
Fromgenesis....please post something!

You've no idea how much I enjoy Bucky's replies.
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18-12-2012, 09:43 PM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
(18-12-2012 09:18 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Fromgenesis....please post something!

You've no idea how much I enjoy Bucky's replies.
I think he's long gone. They never expect we know anything about their old books.
But never fear. Le théiste de la semaine sera bientôt là. Weeping

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23-12-2012, 01:02 AM
RE: Old Testament Texts / Another Look
"The most important early historical person we know of in the history of
Isra-EL is Deborah. She organized the tribes (Judges 5) in combating
their neighbors. Judaism should therefore rather be called Debra-ism.
She is the Mother of the Nation and actually existed, whereas Abraham
did not."

Please tell us more about her.
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