Omg... fuck Trump yall.
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29-08-2017, 07:25 AM
RE: Omg... fuck Trump yall.
(29-08-2017 06:42 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Odd..

We didn't see this outrage when President Obama pardoned a person convicted of treason.

Are you referring to Chelsea Manning? Her sentences were commuted. She was never pardoned.

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29-08-2017, 07:32 AM
RE: Omg... fuck Trump yall.
(29-08-2017 06:48 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(29-08-2017 06:42 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Odd..

We didn't see this outrage when President Obama pardoned a person convicted of treason.


Seems to me that contempt of court over an arguably political legal maneuvering is a "slightly" lesser charge.

[Semi irony mode]
Yeah but that guy wasn't an agent of the government.
I support pardons for Anarchists, revolutionaries, etc etc.
But not government officials. As a conflict of interest sort of thing.
[/Semi irony mode]

45s supporters love to falsely attack Obama by saying "they do it too".

Oh I forgot it was Obama who said,

"They're rapists"
"Ban all Muslims"
"McCain is no hero."
"17 intel agencies don't know what they are talking about".
"Fake News"......Yep Goebbles and Un love to vilify dissent too.

We had slavery, we had segregation, we had Jim Crow, we had McCarthism, no WE WONT GO BACK.

Mitt Romney didn't use carpet bombing scapegoating vilification of multiple groups. McCain didn't, Bush Jr didn't, Bush Sr didn't nor did Reagan. Anyone trying to equate Obama to 45 is simply a fucking asshole.

Obama never ran his campaign like 45 nor has any president over the past 50 years republican or democrat.

Obama never had 50 former Democrat intel agents sign a letter warning of his political scapegoating tactic. 45 has had 50 former REPUBLICAN intel agents sound the alarm bells last year.

45s and Obama are not even closely comparable. If one wants to live under a government run by a head of state that carpet bomb attacks any dissent, try North Korea.l

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29-08-2017, 07:38 AM
RE: Omg... fuck Trump yall.
(29-08-2017 07:20 AM)Rockblossom Wrote:  I'm not a lawyer, so I'll have to explain my understanding as a layman. Any actual lawyers, feel free to correct me.

It has to do with the definition of "high crimes and misdemeaners" as it is used in the Constitution. It's a single term, as "high-crimes-and-misdemeaners" not as "he murdered seven poeple, then he jaywalked!" HC&M refers to misuse of power that can only be done from high office.

This particular pardon might be seen (or not, depending on who is making the call) as an abuse of power to pardon someone for personal reasons ( bypassing the judicial process) or as a personal favor to a friend/supporter.

What would those personal reasons be that could be construed as HC&Ms? Isn't the pardon process inherently up to the discretion of the pardoner? I would guess that most presidents and governors who've ever issued pardons have done so either by leaning on suggestions of legal counsel, or taking a look at the situation themselves and making a decision based on what they feel to be the right course of action. I don't think that it is provable in any way that Clinton, Bush, Obama and yet, even Trump made any pardons outside of the scope of authority for pardons laid out in the Constitution. Even when Obama pardoned Manning, there are many republicans who said the same thing. But it was Obama's prerogative to make that decision...not the courts, or the legislature.

I guess if it could be proven that Arpaio paid for his pardon in some way, then sure, but other than that I'm not sure how anyone could reasonably argue that this pardon was illegal.

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29-08-2017, 07:41 AM
RE: Omg... fuck Trump yall.
(29-08-2017 07:02 AM)Dom Wrote:  Trump wants a police state. I keep saying that. He wants brutal police. Remember when he said "don't be too nice" regarding hitting the heads of suspects on the car door...

And the Trumpians who are being targeted by the Russian investigation are listening. There are pardons in their future.

He can't pardon himself though...

He believes himself Caesar.

He forgets Caesar's fate.

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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29-08-2017, 07:43 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2017 08:00 AM by Rockblossom.)
RE: Omg... fuck Trump yall.
(29-08-2017 07:25 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(29-08-2017 06:42 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Odd..

We didn't see this outrage when President Obama pardoned a person convicted of treason.

Are you referring to Chelsea Manning? Her sentences were commuted. She was never pardoned.

Correct. The conviction, and the Dishonorable Discharge from the Army, stand. The DD means no veteran's benefits or medical services paid for by the military, and the DD is a consideration/disqualifier for any state or federal job (like being a postal clerk) and bars any federal school loans, etc. Only the actual prison time was shortened. And Manning was not convicted of treason, but for violations of the Espionage Act and other offenses under the UCMJ.

I don't know what the lawyers presented to the President in the request for commute/pardon, and I don't have the content of the courts martial proceedings, so the reasons for the commute is just a somewhat educated guess on my part. One consideration was that Manning was convicted by courts martial proceedings, and she was an Intelligence Specialist in the Army. (For those military personnel in Intelligence, the sentence for violation of the EA add up to 20 years to a sentence.) Once convicted, there's not a lot of leeway on the sentence, and her age and lack of experience were not taken into consideration. (And may well have not been permitted by the judge.) A civilian convicted under the EA for the exact same offense would (and several have) gotten a much shorter sentence.

Edited to add: In the case of Sheriff Arpaio, the pardon effecitvely wipes out the conviction, leaving him eligible to run for office again - like, perhaps, as a primary opponent against Senator Jeff Flake, a critic of the President.
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29-08-2017, 08:00 AM
RE: Omg... fuck Trump yall.
I stand corrected.

Commuted sentence, not pardon - either one overrules the conviction.

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29-08-2017, 08:03 AM
RE: Omg... fuck Trump yall.
(29-08-2017 08:00 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  I stand corrected.

Commuted sentence, not pardon - either one overrules the conviction.

No. A commuted sentence does not overrule a conviction. The conviction stands, with just part of the sentence commuted. It's not unlike when a review board looks at someone serving a prison sentence, and decides to commute part of the sentence and give them early release.
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29-08-2017, 08:14 AM
RE: Omg... fuck Trump yall.
(29-08-2017 07:32 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(29-08-2017 06:48 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  [Semi irony mode]
Yeah but that guy wasn't an agent of the government.
I support pardons for Anarchists, revolutionaries, etc etc.
But not government officials. As a conflict of interest sort of thing.
[/Semi irony mode]

45s supporters love to falsely attack Obama by saying "they do it too".

Oh I forgot it was Obama who said,

"They're rapists"
"Ban all Muslims"
"McCain is no hero."
"17 intel agencies don't know what they are talking about".
"Fake News"......Yep Goebbles and Un love to vilify dissent too.

We had slavery, we had segregation, we had Jim Crow, we had McCarthism, no WE WONT GO BACK.

Mitt Romney didn't use carpet bombing scapegoating vilification of multiple groups. McCain didn't, Bush Jr didn't, Bush Sr didn't nor did Reagan. Anyone trying to equate Obama to 45 is simply a fucking asshole.

Obama never ran his campaign like 45 nor has any president over the past 50 years republican or democrat.

Obama never had 50 former Democrat intel agents sign a letter warning of his political scapegoating tactic. 45 has had 50 former REPUBLICAN intel agents sound the alarm bells last year.

45s and Obama are not even closely comparable. If one wants to live under a government run by a head of state that carpet bomb attacks any dissent, try North Korea.l

(29-08-2017 07:38 AM)reeveseb Wrote:  
(29-08-2017 07:20 AM)Rockblossom Wrote:  I'm not a lawyer, so I'll have to explain my understanding as a layman. Any actual lawyers, feel free to correct me.

It has to do with the definition of "high crimes and misdemeaners" as it is used in the Constitution. It's a single term, as "high-crimes-and-misdemeaners" not as "he murdered seven poeple, then he jaywalked!" HC&M refers to misuse of power that can only be done from high office.

This particular pardon might be seen (or not, depending on who is making the call) as an abuse of power to pardon someone for personal reasons ( bypassing the judicial process) or as a personal favor to a friend/supporter.

What would those personal reasons be that could be construed as HC&Ms? Isn't the pardon process inherently up to the discretion of the pardoner? I would guess that most presidents and governors who've ever issued pardons have done so either by leaning on suggestions of legal counsel, or taking a look at the situation themselves and making a decision based on what they feel to be the right course of action. I don't think that it is provable in any way that Clinton, Bush, Obama and yet, even Trump made any pardons outside of the scope of authority for pardons laid out in the Constitution. Even when Obama pardoned Manning, there are many republicans who said the same thing. But it was Obama's prerogative to make that decision...not the courts, or the legislature.

I guess if it could be proven that Arpaio paid for his pardon in some way, then sure, but other than that I'm not sure how anyone could reasonably argue that this pardon was illegal.

Will it never end?
Why does criticism of Trump need to equate to support of Obama and / or Hillary.
I'll go on record that they are all shit.
It just never ceases to amaze me how easy it is to get people to support anything by giving them 2 choices and making them hate one or the other.

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29-08-2017, 08:23 AM
RE: Omg... fuck Trump yall.
(29-08-2017 08:14 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(29-08-2017 07:38 AM)reeveseb Wrote:  Even when Obama pardoned Manning, there are many republicans who said the same thing. But it was Obama's prerogative to make that decision...not the courts, or the legislature.

Will it never end?
Why does criticism of Trump need to equate to support of Obama and / or Hillary.
I'll go on record that they are all shit.
It just never ceases to amaze me how easy it is to get people to support anything by giving them 2 choices and making them hate one or the other.

For my part, I'm not supporting one or the other. I'm looking at the situation and trying to understand why this pardon is so controversial. The quote above is me supporting Obama's decision to commute Manning's sentence, not lambasting him for it.

It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out.
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29-08-2017, 08:30 AM
RE: Omg... fuck Trump yall.
(29-08-2017 08:23 AM)reeveseb Wrote:  
(29-08-2017 08:14 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Will it never end?
Why does criticism of Trump need to equate to support of Obama and / or Hillary.
I'll go on record that they are all shit.
It just never ceases to amaze me how easy it is to get people to support anything by giving them 2 choices and making them hate one or the other.

For my part, I'm not supporting one or the other. I'm looking at the situation and trying to understand why this pardon is so controversial. The quote above is me supporting Obama's decision to commute Manning's sentence, not lambasting him for it.

Because despite that technically the president can pardon anyone, one wants to know that he's not using that ability for his own ends - not abusing the system. The Arpaio pardon seems to be purely on a whim of Trump's, and sets an extremely dangerous precedent. "If I like you, I can pardon you, I can protect you from legal challenges. How much do you like me?"

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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