Omnibenevolent (all loving)
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20-08-2015, 06:51 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 06:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 06:03 PM)unfogged Wrote:  and the evidence for that is what?
I am explaining why God Father has to appoint another God - Yahweh so He doesn't have to rob Justice but we can have Mercy.
I am not here to convince you to believe that there is God Father.

Yet if there is no reason to believe there is a father god then your explanation is a bit like explaining why bigfoot likes it when the loch ness monster swims fast. It makes just about as much sense.

Even if I bought into any of this claptrap, the father appointing the son to do something so that he doesn't have to do it himself is what we call delegation. The father is still responsible for it and his little loophole is pretty transparent to anybody not completely indoctrinated in bullshit.

Quote:God Father said to Adam that Justice for sin is death. He said this because it is eternal law and nobody can change it. So, God Father can not forgive Adam without robbing Justice. Adam has to die(hell). This is Justice.

if he made the law he can change it; if he didn't make the law then he isn't the ultimate lawgiver. Eternal torture for a finite crime is not justice, it is vindictiveness. Your father god is an immoral shyster. Got it.

Quote:But God Father wants Adam to have Mercy.
How? God Father has to pay for Adams sins so eternal law can be satisfied. God Father has to save Adam by atoning for Adam. God Father is exalted God. Exalted God can not die because He is immortal.

If Adam did something wrong and the father god is not permitted to simply forgive then Adam has to pay for it. Nobody else can if you think justice matters. If anybody else pays then Adam simply owes the debt to somebody else. You need to get that simple idea through your head. Substitionary atonement in the manner you describe is an example of neither mercy or justice.

Quote:So another God(Yahweh) who is NOT exalted yet can become mortal and atone.

Again, for this to be an answer you first have to provide evidence that these gradations of godhood are anything more than an ad-hoc excuse. Until then it is indistinguishable from a delusion and worthless.

Of course, if you could prove it then we'd be back to the fact that this non-exalted god, whatever that is supposed to mean, can't atone for something Adam did in any meaningful way.

Quote:Not exactly. Cross is a place where God Yahweh(Son) who was not yet exalted died. Yahweh(Jesus) atoned for our sins in Gethsemane.
Fall of Adam was in the garden (Eden). Atonement also was in the garden(Gethsemane)

That doesn't explain what he did that atoned for anything.

Quote:I am not convincing you to believe. I am explaining to you the principle - the Atonement.

Your beliefs are irrational, even for a theist.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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20-08-2015, 08:21 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 05:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 05:48 PM)julep Wrote:  Your god sounds like he is a mob boss ordering that his dirty money be laundered.
It is NOT possible to forgive without robbing justice. what part of this true principle
you do not understand?

You clearly don't understand the true nature of forgiveness. It isn't about letting someone off the hook. It's about being kind even as you are perhaps being stern. Forgiveness does not undercut justice; forgiveness happens after justice is meted out, most times.

Justice and forgiveness are not incompatible, unless you're so hard-hearted that forgiveness looks like weakness.
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20-08-2015, 09:53 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2015 09:59 PM by TheMrBillShow.)
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 06:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  I am not here to convince you to believe that there is God Father.

[Image: godfather.png]

There is no "I" in "team" but there is a broken and mixed up "me."
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21-08-2015, 05:07 AM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 09:53 PM)TheMrBillShow Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 06:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  I am not here to convince you to believe that there is God Father.

[Image: godfather.png]

What about uncle daddy?

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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21-08-2015, 05:25 AM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 03:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 02:41 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  And it begs the question -Why can't god simply forgive without blood ritual? We humans don't need this nonsense to forgive wrongs.

What do we need to forgive wrongs then? How do we begin to reconcile a relationship with someone who has wronged us, even someone we have wronged? This doesn't seem to be our natural predilection. We're more likely to remember even the smallest of offenses, rather than forgive them. To pile our resentments up, than love or forgive those we see as the source of them. Do you have a model of forgiveness in your life? Is there someone in your life whose forgiving nature you admire, yet don't see yourself as possessing that same quality?

I know I'm a petty son of a bitch, more likely to take your eye out for wronging me, than forgiving you. But perhaps you imagine yourself much differently.

Do you require blood for forgiveness, then? Is that what you're saying?

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21-08-2015, 05:56 AM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
premise1. god doesn't allow suffering to exist because he is omnibenevolent,
premise2. therefore all things that exist don't cause suffering

conclusion. therefore small pox, chicken pox, swine flu, anthrax, bird flu, ebola, bone/brain tumors, cancer, HIV/AID's, tapeworms, malaria, dengue, earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, droughts, mass starvation, asteroids and meteors, global warming, black holes, justin beiber, donald trump etc don't cause suffering


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21-08-2015, 06:11 AM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
Um. If God is both *good* and *all powerful* (since afaik that is scriptural) then doesn't that kinda imply that he should be omnibenevolent?

I mean an all-powerful being that doesn't do shit about alleviating suffering or worse, spends time e.g. coming up with ideas like Ebola... can hardly lay claim to being *good* in any sense of the word, IMO.

Also, KC, since your God is clearly not omnibenevolent, what are you still doing worshiping the fucker?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-08-2015, 06:16 AM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 02:31 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 02:27 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's worse than that; according to this analogy, the innocent man would be taking the place of EVERYONE on death row, as long as they requested that the death be substituted for them.

I honestly can't make heads or tails of anything she writes.

Is she saying that if someone asks God for salvation, they will be rescued from the consequences and they are imputed onto Jesus?

She's also using two sources that you wouldn't:
  • The Book of Mormon
  • Anyone with a claim to be able to "properly" interpret the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
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21-08-2015, 01:08 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 06:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Yet if there is no reason to believe there is a father god then your explanation is a bit like explaining why bigfoot likes it when the loch ness monster swims fast. It makes just about as much sense.
I agree. If you have no reason to believe there is God Father, you don't need to know anything about God Father.
But you talk to me about Him, I talk to you back.
(20-08-2015 06:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Even if I bought into any of this claptrap, the father appointing the son to do something so that he doesn't have to do it himself is what we call delegation. The father is still responsible for it and his little loophole is pretty transparent to anybody not completely indoctrinated in bullshit.
As soon as we commit at least one sin we are sinners. No sinner can enter heaven. Heaven that is full of sinners is not heaven anymore. Heaven is clean place. Person who is covered with mud will make clean place dirty.
Sinner has to be clean or free from sin.
Analogy: sin is dirty spot on the body. In order to become free from this spot it has to be removed. I commit many sins. All my body is dirty( including my hands)
I can not remove dirty spots if all my body is dirty. Only someone who is clean can do it for me.
Someone has to come to me from clean place heaven. God Father can not come to clean me. In order to this He has to obtain mortal physical body. He has to die. God Father has immortal, glorified physical body. Immortal body is immortal because it can not be destroyed by death.
But God Yahweh didn't have immortal physical body. He could come on Earth, obtain mortal physical body and clean us from sins.
After He saved us, after He cleaned us, He died, then He resurrected in immortal, glorified body, the same body as God father has. Now both of Them are immortal, glorified, resurrected Gods.
(20-08-2015 06:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  if he made the law he can change it;
Gods do NOT create eternal laws. Eternal laws are from eternity to eternity. Gods only teach us those eternal laws. They tell us about them. They tell us to obey those eternal laws the same way They do it. So, we can become like Them. We can become Gods.
(20-08-2015 06:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  if he didn't make the law then he isn't the ultimate lawgiver.
He is not. They are not. Yahweh never claimed that He is ultimate lawgiver.
(20-08-2015 06:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Eternal torture for a finite crime is not justice, it is vindictiveness. Your father god is an immoral shyster. Got it.
Gods do not torture anybody for eternity.
"eternal punishment" doesn't mean that it will last eternity. "Eternal punishment" means this: it comes from ETERNAL God. It means that in the past there were beings that were punished, now there are beings that are having punishment, in the future it will be beings that will be punished. But it doesn't mean that each being is going to be punished forever.
(20-08-2015 06:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  If Adam did something wrong and the father god is not permitted to simply forgive then Adam has to pay for it.
Yes, but then God Father can not be called Mercy anymore. If God Father doesn't provide mercy for Adam He can not be God anymore.
(20-08-2015 06:51 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Nobody else can if you think justice matters. If anybody else pays then Adam simply owes the debt to somebody else.
Yes, yes. He owes it to JESUS. Now Adam owes to Jesus NOT to Father.
But Jesus is not the Father. That is why He makes now CONDITIONS of the contract/covenant.
Jesus says: now you do NOT owe to Father even one penny. You owe zero to God Father. I paid for you all debt. Now I am your new Creditor. I make conditions of contract. These are my conditions:
You can't pay to Me everything. But you can pay me something. You work hard and give me all you can. That will satisfy conditions of my contract/covenant.
It is Mercy - I don't have to pay all. It is Justice - you work hard to pay me all you CAN.
So, when I make a covenant with Yahweh or Jesus Christ I start to work to pay Him back all I can. How? By taking His name upon myself and by obeying His laws.
When I do this He will clean me from sins at the day of my resurrection. I will be resurrected clean and free from sins.

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21-08-2015, 01:12 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 08:21 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  You clearly don't understand the true nature of forgiveness. It isn't about letting someone off the hook.
I do understand. That is why I never said that it is letting someone off the hook.

I only explain why God Father can not clean us from sins. Why someone else has to be sent to clean us. I explain why we can not clean ourselves.
I explained that now Jesus or Yahweh is our Creditor and what it means to pay Him back.
JUSTICE according to His contract - pay back all you can.
MERCY according to His contract - I forgive the rest.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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