Omnibenevolent (all loving)
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19-08-2015, 05:20 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(19-08-2015 05:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(19-08-2015 04:54 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Where did Original Sin come from,
I don't know. Show me the Scripture that has words "original sin". Book, chapter, verse.
(19-08-2015 04:54 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  where did Transubstantiation come from,
From Satan and From Catholic church
(19-08-2015 04:54 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  where did the immaculate conception of Mary come from?
From Satan and from Catholic church.
(19-08-2015 04:54 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Well, even where did the idea of Omniscience, Omnipotence, & Omnipresence come from?
From God. But many don't know what it really means according to true God's dictionary.

You have an intellectual dilemma when you heap shit on Catholic church doctrine. They basically invented your religion (minus ol' Joe.)
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19-08-2015, 05:32 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(25-07-1974 10:34 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  Yes it does. If you believe this means the"elect or chosen" world, you better think again. The greek word for world here is kosmon, the same word used in 1 John 2:15

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

That word kosmon cannot refer to a separate set of people like you seem to think it does

It doesn't have to do anything with kosmon or the reference of "world". It's about limited atonement. He loved the whole world, but His salvation is only for some which is evident in the Greek.

See what I wrote about it below:
(17-07-2015 09:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Let's go over your verses:

1 Peter 3:21 - this is addressing believers... not just "anyone". The context is clear.

Romans 10:9 - again... who is he addressing? The Roman church. Not just anyone... the first word in in chapter 10 is "adelphos" which is used to address a "Christian brother". Source. Not to mention, Paul spends the majority of chapter 8 and all of chapter 9 blatantly saying that salvation is only for the elect. Nice cherry picking.

Acts 22:16 - lol wtf does this have anything to do with "anyone" receiving salvation. This is about Paul and Ananias. Did you even read this?

John 3:16-17 - ahhh old reliable. I can't tell you how many times I've had to educate people on this verse. In John 3:16, the phrase "whosoever will" is not in the original language. The Greek literally reads "the believing ones". In essence, even John 3:16 limits the atonement and the purpose of the coming of Christ to only "the believing ones". These believing one, elect, are found scattered all throughout the world in every nation, tribe, and tongue. It literally reads, "in order that all the believing ones in him" the "believing ones" is a participle that is being used as a noun to refer to a specific group of people. Also, ‎"all" does not mean "whosoever". Furthermore, in the sentence structure "pas" is an adjective that describes the participle "believing ones" and thus describes "all" in that specific group, ie, the believing ones, not every individual that ever lived.

Eph 2:8-9 - again... talking to the elect in Ephesus. Again... did you even read this? This has nothing to do with "anyone" receiving salvation. In fact, in chapter 1 it talks about how the elect were predestined for salvation before the world even came into being. Source

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19-08-2015, 05:51 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
Here's an old thread started by ChristIsMyBuddy which asks the same question. Where does this whole "God is omnibenevolent" postulation come from? It's not very long and I didn't find any satisfactory answers in it but it's worth a read.

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19-08-2015, 05:53 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(19-08-2015 05:32 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(25-07-1974 10:34 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  Yes it does. If you believe this means the"elect or chosen" world, you better think again. The greek word for world here is kosmon, the same word used in 1 John 2:15

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

That word kosmon cannot refer to a separate set of people like you seem to think it does

It doesn't have to do anything with kosmon or the reference of "world". It's about limited atonement. He loved the whole world, but His salvation is only for some which is evident in the Greek.

See what I wrote about it below:
(17-07-2015 09:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Let's go over your verses:

1 Peter 3:21 - this is addressing believers... not just "anyone". The context is clear.

Romans 10:9 - again... who is he addressing? The Roman church. Not just anyone... the first word in in chapter 10 is "adelphos" which is used to address a "Christian brother". Source. Not to mention, Paul spends the majority of chapter 8 and all of chapter 9 blatantly saying that salvation is only for the elect. Nice cherry picking.

Acts 22:16 - lol wtf does this have anything to do with "anyone" receiving salvation. This is about Paul and Ananias. Did you even read this?

John 3:16-17 - ahhh old reliable. I can't tell you how many times I've had to educate people on this verse. In John 3:16, the phrase "whosoever will" is not in the original language. The Greek literally reads "the believing ones". In essence, even John 3:16 limits the atonement and the purpose of the coming of Christ to only "the believing ones". These believing one, elect, are found scattered all throughout the world in every nation, tribe, and tongue. It literally reads, "in order that all the believing ones in him" the "believing ones" is a participle that is being used as a noun to refer to a specific group of people. Also, ‎"all" does not mean "whosoever". Furthermore, in the sentence structure "pas" is an adjective that describes the participle "believing ones" and thus describes "all" in that specific group, ie, the believing ones, not every individual that ever lived.

Eph 2:8-9 - again... talking to the elect in Ephesus. Again... did you even read this? This has nothing to do with "anyone" receiving salvation. In fact, in chapter 1 it talks about how the elect were predestined for salvation before the world even came into being. Source

Okay I get it. Jesus is saying "I didn't choose you for predestination, but I still love you"

So Jesus is basically being a dick. Thanks for clarifying that

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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19-08-2015, 06:04 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
KC, I believe it has to do with interpretation (obviously) and the problem of contingency. Theologians ascribe certain attributes to their god, mostly that he is non-contingent, independent and has a self-sustained mode of existence. If he was just a great being of finite benevolence, then his existence would be contingent and we could conceive of a being of greater benevolence. So, omnibenevolence is a requisite of a perfect being, otherwise why call him God?

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19-08-2015, 06:09 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(19-08-2015 05:15 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Paul made it clear that he thought anyone who had faith in Christ became "children of God."
Yes, Paul also said that in Christ ALL people will live again. It is salvation from death(hell). So God loves all His children and saves them from death(hell). You don't even have to believe in God.
But if you want to have exaltation and not just immortality, if you want to become heir of God, you have to be born again through faith in Christ.
Paul understood it very well.
1 Cor 15:22

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19-08-2015, 06:22 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
Loving parent to his child: "I can save you from all your debts. I will pay for them so you do not go to debt prison(hell), but I will never make you my heir.
I will make your brother an heir. He will know how to use it(heritage) well.

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19-08-2015, 06:23 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(19-08-2015 05:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  It's not very long and I didn't find any satisfactory answers

Because it's church doctrine, not Biblical canon. It's tacked on after the fact, like the whole beatification system for the saints, and uses cherry-picked verses that tell the reader that God is loving while ignoring the fact that God's actual characterization in the text paints him as anything but.

It's a marketing ploy that happened to catch on.

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19-08-2015, 06:29 PM (This post was last modified: 19-08-2015 06:53 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
Isn't the word "agape", used in all of the above verses, a Greek word that simultaneously has the connotations of "selfless love" and "charity"? (Our church heavily taught the difference in the Greek words for our single English word, love: "philios" = "brotherly love", "eros" = "sexual love", "storgos" = "empathic/pitying love", and "agape" = "selfless/charitable love"... if I'm recalling all that correctly.)

I think that most denominations would argue that the meaning Paul is going for in all of the verses I've seen is "charitable love" (as in, love for those who do not deserve, or do not think they deserve, love), and that (as much as I hate to agree with Alla on anything) the better translation here would be not "omnibenevolence" but a "spirit of charity toward".

In other words, the verses have everything to do with offering salvation and a spirit of charity toward people, not "omnibenevolence" in the sense of "must/should stop all evils from occurring". Paul would have likely said that, once you accept God's grace to your undeserving ass, you'd better show that same grace to other assholes who don't deserve it. At least, this is my read.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-08-2015, 06:48 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
Since when has any sect bounded its doctrine entirely within the Bible? All of them either add extrabiblical doctrine, or ignore the uncomfortable parts. No sect is both purely and wholly biblical.

As for omnibenevolence itself, clearly the Christian conception of God doesn't include that aspect, yet so many Christians do. So a better question is not why atheists argue against omnibenevolence, but why so many sects argue for it when passages like Isaiah 45:7 directly contradict it.

Furthermore, the expression of God in the Bible directly contradicts what Paul has to say about love in 1Cor13. That needs to be cleared up before this question can be answered.
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