Omnibenevolent (all loving)
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20-08-2015, 02:31 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2015 02:41 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 02:27 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's worse than that; according to this analogy, the innocent man would be taking the place of EVERYONE on death row, as long as they requested that the death be substituted for them.

I honestly can't make heads or tails of anything she writes.

Is she saying that if someone asks God for salvation, they will be rescued from the consequences and they are imputed onto Jesus?

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20-08-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 12:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 06:52 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Obviously repentance can't be sincere unless it is drenched in innocent blood because god so loves his creation. Or something like that anyway.
Drinking Beverage
Sincere repentance can bring forgiveness or Mercy but it will rob Justice.
God can not rob Justice. If He does He can not be God any more.
Blood of Christ or Atonement helps to have Mercy without robbing Justice.
I know you still don't understand why.

Weren't you going to prove to me that this wasn't made up by Paul? Still waiting.Drinking Beverage
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20-08-2015, 02:41 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 02:27 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's worse than that; according to this analogy, the innocent man would be taking the place of EVERYONE on death row, as long as they requested that the death be substituted for them.

And it begs the question -Why can't god simply forgive without blood ritual? We humans don't need this nonsense to forgive wrongs.

So if I was god, I would simply stop getting upset about what tiny little mortals do - that solves the sin problem. I would destroy hell, and give people a clear-informed choice after they die. Paradise, reincarnation, termination of all consciousness.
Whatever you like, that's a real choice, none of this divine hiddenness crap and then torturing you forever if you don't make the right choice due to incomplete information or terrible proof proffered from con-artists.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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20-08-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 02:27 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's worse than that; according to this analogy, the innocent man would be taking the place of EVERYONE on death row, as long as they requested that the death be substituted for them.

You can't make it too complex or her last brain cell will implode

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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20-08-2015, 03:02 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
KC - Near as I can tell, yes, she's going with the "the blood of Christ washes you clean of all" theology, which was also what my church (SBC) taught. Of course, they taught that if you REALLY wanted it enough to be able to receive the "free gift", then you'd WANT to do right by Him.

(20-08-2015 02:41 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 02:27 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's worse than that; according to this analogy, the innocent man would be taking the place of EVERYONE on death row, as long as they requested that the death be substituted for them.

And it begs the question -Why can't god simply forgive without blood ritual? We humans don't need this nonsense to forgive wrongs.

So if I was god, I would simply stop getting upset about what tiny little mortals do - that solves the sin problem. I would destroy hell, and give people a clear-informed choice after they die. Paradise, reincarnation, termination of all consciousness.
Whatever you like, that's a real choice, none of this divine hiddenness crap and then torturing you forever if you don't make the right choice due to incomplete information or terrible proof proffered from con-artists.

This is a conversation I've had with my Beloved. She thinks most of the hell-concepts are shoehorned into the Bible from other religions; religious "borrowing" was something of the order of the day, in fairness. According to her, the choice is ascension to Paradise, if one meets the standards of holiness (whatever those might be), or Sheol, the grave, which is the death we atheists all think we're heading for, anyway. By being an atheist, she says, I have simply decided that I'm comfortable with the grave.

There is some support for this is Judaism, as Carrier points out in some of his videos, with the "heavenly host" of various ascended beings. From the perspective of someone who accepts evolution, it goes something like this:

Universe is ~13.77 billion years old, earth is 4 1/2 billion of that time, much of which was spent with life that was not much more than bacteria. One day, one of the animals, an east African bipedal primate, evolved enough intelligence to acknowledge its creator and imagine a time after its death. We began to see the "higher level" and developed a desire to reach it (some of us). As a result, the Creator helps through our prayers and meditations to reach that higher state. Christians think He sent a part of himself down in human form, "his son", to show us the way to enlightenment, by which we can ascend into an after-life Paradise (see, e.g. John 14:6). Some people screwed that up, and turned it into a system of bribery and threats and bloodiness in their genuine attempts to please their Creator-- and if they got a career and some sacrificial lamb-meat as part of the deal, all the better.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying I subscribe to any of the above in the least, but I do find it much more theologically palatable than the "standard" form of Christianity with which we are so often forced to deal (YOU'LL BURN IN HELL AND I'LL BE LAUGHING!), as atheists. Without the threat of hell, there's no gun, and thus no rapist.

I rather like your concept of being met at death by the creator and offered a choice of Paradise, Reincarnation, or Permanent Death. You could even leave the Creator actually rating us by our behavior in there, as in "if you made 85/100 points, you qualify for Paradise... between 85 and 15, you fall on a scale of reincarnated people/animal options, and watch out it gets kinda shady down there around 22 or so... and then if you were truly terrible, <14 points, then your option was simply the endless sleep of the grave". It's all a bunch of woo, but it's at least not unpleasant woo compared to the versions we keep getting.

Hey, TheInquisition... wanna start a religion together? Joseph Smith appeared to me in a dream and said it's a great way to make a lot of money and score a lot of sex.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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20-08-2015, 03:08 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 03:02 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  KC - Near as I can tell, yes, she's going with the "the blood of Christ washes you clean of all" theology, which was also what my church (SBC) taught. Of course, they taught that if you REALLY wanted it enough to be able to receive the "free gift", then you'd WANT to do right by Him.

(20-08-2015 02:41 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  And it begs the question -Why can't god simply forgive without blood ritual? We humans don't need this nonsense to forgive wrongs.

So if I was god, I would simply stop getting upset about what tiny little mortals do - that solves the sin problem. I would destroy hell, and give people a clear-informed choice after they die. Paradise, reincarnation, termination of all consciousness.
Whatever you like, that's a real choice, none of this divine hiddenness crap and then torturing you forever if you don't make the right choice due to incomplete information or terrible proof proffered from con-artists.

This is a conversation I've had with my Beloved. She thinks most of the hell-concepts are shoehorned into the Bible from other religions; religious "borrowing" was something of the order of the day, in fairness. According to her, the choice is ascension to Paradise, if one meets the standards of holiness (whatever those might be), or Sheol, the grave, which is the death we atheists all think we're heading for, anyway. By being an atheist, she says, I have simply decided that I'm comfortable with the grave.

There is some support for this is Judaism, as Carrier points out in some of his videos, with the "heavenly host" of various ascended beings. From the perspective of someone who accepts evolution, it goes something like this:

Universe is ~13.77 billion years old, earth is 4 1/2 billion of that time, much of which was spent with life that was not much more than bacteria. One day, one of the animals, an east African bipedal primate, evolved enough intelligence to acknowledge its creator and imagine a time after its death. We began to see the "higher level" and developed a desire to reach it (some of us). As a result, the Creator helps through our prayers and meditations to reach that higher state. Christians think He sent a part of himself down in human form, "his son", to show us the way to enlightenment, by which we can ascend into an after-life Paradise (see, e.g. John 14:6). Some people screwed that up, and turned it into a system of bribery and threats and bloodiness in their genuine attempts to please their Creator-- and if they got a career and some sacrificial lamb-meat as part of the deal, all the better.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying I subscribe to any of the above in the least, but I do find it much more theologically palatable than the "standard" form of Christianity with which we are so often forced to deal (YOU'LL BURN IN HELL AND I'LL BE LAUGHING!), as atheists. Without the threat of hell, there's no gun, and thus no rapist.

I rather like your concept of being met at death by the creator and offered a choice of Paradise, Reincarnation, or Permanent Death. You could even leave the Creator actually rating us by our behavior in there, as in "if you made 85/100 points, you qualify for Paradise... between 85 and 15, you fall on a scale of reincarnated people/animal options, and watch out it gets kinda shady down there around 22 or so... and then if you were truly terrible, <14 points, then your option was simply the endless sleep of the grave". It's all a bunch of woo, but it's at least not unpleasant woo compared to the versions we keep getting.

Hey, TheInquisition... wanna start a religion together? Joseph Smith appeared to me in a dream and said it's a great way to make a lot of money and score a lot of sex.

Sounds great! Laugh out load

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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20-08-2015, 03:15 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
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(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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20-08-2015, 03:26 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2015 03:29 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 02:41 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  And it begs the question -Why can't god simply forgive without blood ritual? We humans don't need this nonsense to forgive wrongs.

What do we need to forgive wrongs then? How do we begin to reconcile a relationship with someone who has wronged us, even someone we have wronged? This doesn't seem to be our natural predilection. We're more likely to remember even the smallest of offenses, rather than forgive them. To pile our resentments up, than love or forgive those we see as the source of them. Do you have a model of forgiveness in your life? Is there someone in your life whose forgiving nature you admire, yet don't see yourself as possessing that same quality?

I know I'm a petty son of a bitch, more likely to take your eye out for wronging me, than forgiving you. But perhaps you imagine yourself much differently.
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20-08-2015, 03:35 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 03:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 02:41 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  And it begs the question -Why can't god simply forgive without blood ritual? We humans don't need this nonsense to forgive wrongs.

What do we need to forgive wrongs then? How do we begin to reconcile a relationship with someone who has wronged us, even someone we have wronged? This doesn't seem to be our natural predilection. We're more likely to remember even the smallest of offenses, rather than forgive them. To pile our resentments up, than love or forgive those we see as the source of them. Do you have a model of forgiveness in your life? Is there someone in your life whose forgiving nature you admire, yet don't see yourself as possessing that same quality?

Following Yhwh's model, I guess I need a lamb's throat slit.

The meat provides a pleasing aroma when it's burnt.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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20-08-2015, 04:07 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 02:18 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 01:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  You've said that before and what I don't understand is how you can't see how inane that is. Third-party atonement does not magically supply either mercy or justice. It only adds an injustice to the third party.

Mercy and justice are at odds with each other. You can't have either without diminishing the other. Adding a third party into the mixture does not alter that, it just changes who suffers what degree of injustice. The entire concept is as barbaric as it is ridiculous.

I want to add to this and (hopefully) make some sense to Alla.

Let's say your child was murdered by some psycopath, gets caught and goes to trial. The judge sentences him to die for the crime he commited. Before he is escorted out, a man sitting in the court stands up and proclaims that he wishes to take the guilty man's place at the electric chair if they will let him go. The judge agrees, the man that murdered your child walks free out the door and the innocent man gets carried away to die.

Yes or no, would you say that justice was served?

Okay Alla, since you haven't responded to this, I will spell it out for you. Substitutionary justice cannot and never will be perfect justice. In the case of my example while it may satisfy the legal system, it does nothing for the victims of the act. Likewise, Jesus' death may appease god's wrath, but it does nothing for the victims. It robs them of the justice that they deserve. Why is god not concerned with that aspect? You said yourself:

(20-08-2015 12:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  God can not rob Justice. If He does He can not be God any more.

You tell me Alla,

is he still god?

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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