Omnibenevolent (all loving)
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20-08-2015, 04:58 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 01:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  You've said that before and what I don't understand is how you can't see how inane that is. Third-party atonement does not magically supply either mercy or justice. It only adds an injustice to the third party.

(20-08-2015 01:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Adding a third party into the mixture does not alter that, it just changes who suffers what degree of injustice. The entire concept is as barbaric as it is ridiculous.
Let me try to explain.
There is God Heavenly Father. He lives in his kingdom(let's call it heaven). Only Gods can live in this kingdom. Gods are those who do NOT break eternal laws.
Mortals or sinners can not live among Gods because they break eternal laws.
If God Father forgives us(cleans us from our sins) and let us enter his kingdom it will be Mercy, but it will be no Justice at all.
If God Father punishes us for sins it will be Justice, but it will be no Mercy.
God Father can not show us Mercy without robbing Justice. It is NOT possible.

So, how can He bring sinners back to His presence? How can we have Mercy so God Father doesn't have to rob Justice? so, He may continue to be God?
He can say and do this: because you are sinners and deserve Justice(death/hell) but I want you to have Mercy (because I love all of you) you are not going to have any covenants with Me.
I will appoint you another God - Yahweh(Jesus Christ, MY Son). You will make covenants with Him.
God Yahweh says: I will save you from your sins, I will wash them away, so, you will be clean and you will be able to return to God Heavenly Father. This is Mercy.
So, Yahweh/Savior/Redeemer makes us free from sins. When we are free from sins, when we are clean we don't need forgiveness from the God Heavenly Father.
Jesus gave us Mercy, Father gave us Mercy by appointing God Yahweh or Savior, and God Father doesn't rob Justice.

God Yahweh who was appointed to us by His God and His Father says to those who lived before 1st century BC: I will save you from sins. He said to those who are born after the Atonement : I saved you from your sins.
ALL people will be saved from hell(death). Nobody has to do anything to have this salvation - immortality.
But if we want to enter God's heaven and to have exaltation, we have to do something. Salvation from death/hell is free for ALL.
Exaltation is not free. We have to work to have it. We have to earn it.

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20-08-2015, 05:01 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 02:31 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 12:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  Sincere repentance can bring forgiveness or Mercy but it will rob Justice.
God can not rob Justice. If He does He can not be God any more.
Blood of Christ or Atonement helps to have Mercy without robbing Justice.
I know you still don't understand why.

Weren't you going to prove to me that this wasn't made up by Paul? Still waiting.Drinking Beverage
No, I was not going to prove anything to you. I give you a choice between:
1)believe it or 2)reject it.
You are free to reject it. Smile

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20-08-2015, 05:04 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 04:07 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 12:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  God can not rob Justice. If He does He can not be God any more.
You tell me Alla,
is he still god?
Yes, read my answer above.

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20-08-2015, 05:09 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 03:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 02:41 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  And it begs the question -Why can't god simply forgive without blood ritual? We humans don't need this nonsense to forgive wrongs.

What do we need to forgive wrongs then?

Me, I forgive folks who wrong me when they demonstrate some thoughtfulness about what they've done ... and the corollary to that is that when I've wronged someone, I must reflect on the wrong I've done and -- this is important, to me -- I must go to the person I've wronged and explain how I've come about my change of heart, and directly apologize, and directly ask forgiveness.

There's no blood involved; it's all a bit deeper than that sort of thing. It requires insight and character and courage to do this. The nailing of scapegoats is a walk in the park compared to the self-abasement one endures in righting a wrong.

I wish I could just point to Jesus and say, "There, there it is. There's my apology, there's my redemption." But no, such matters as apology and forgiveness are, for me, much too serious to assign to any other person.
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20-08-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 05:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 04:07 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  You tell me Alla,
is he still god?
Yes, read my answer above.

Wow, you have just proven yourself to be omnidelusional

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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20-08-2015, 05:35 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 05:26 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  Wow, you have just proven yourself to be omnidelusional
Big Grin

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20-08-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 04:58 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 01:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  You've said that before and what I don't understand is how you can't see how inane that is. Third-party atonement does not magically supply either mercy or justice. It only adds an injustice to the third party.

(20-08-2015 01:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Adding a third party into the mixture does not alter that, it just changes who suffers what degree of injustice. The entire concept is as barbaric as it is ridiculous.
Let me try to explain.
There is God Heavenly Father. He lives in his kingdom(let's call it heaven). Only Gods can live in this kingdom. Gods are those who do NOT break eternal laws.
Mortals or sinners can not live among Gods because they break eternal laws.
If God Father forgives us(cleans us from our sins) and let us enter his kingdom it will be Mercy, but it will be no Justice at all.
If God Father punishes us for sins it will be Justice, but it will be no Mercy.
God Father can not show us Mercy without robbing Justice. It is NOT possible.

So, how can He bring sinners back to His presence? How can we have Mercy so God Father doesn't have to rob Justice? so, He may continue to be God?
He can say and do this: because you are sinners and deserve Justice(death/hell) but I want you to have Mercy (because I love all of you) you are not going to have any covenants with Me.
I will appoint you another God - Yahweh(Jesus Christ, MY Son). You will make covenants with Him.
God Yahweh says: I will save you from your sins, I will wash them away, so, you will be clean and you will be able to return to God Heavenly Father. This is Mercy.
So, Yahweh/Savior/Redeemer makes us free from sins. When we are free from sins, when we are clean we don't need forgiveness from the God Heavenly Father.
Jesus gave us Mercy, Father gave us Mercy by appointing God Yahweh or Savior, and God Father doesn't rob Justice.

God Yahweh who was appointed to us by His God and His Father says to those who lived before 1st century BC: I will save you from sins. He said to those who are born after the Atonement : I saved you from your sins.
ALL people will be saved from hell(death). Nobody has to do anything to have this salvation - immortality.
But if we want to enter God's heaven and to have exaltation, we have to do something. Salvation from death/hell is free for ALL.
Exaltation is not free. We have to work to have it. We have to earn it.

Your god sounds like he is a mob boss ordering that his dirty money be laundered. Setting up a sucker god to process souls so that the boss god is "allowed" (by whom?) to let sinners into his heaven… (And like a lot of guys who've been set up, sucker god pays for it with his life)

Ludicrous.
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20-08-2015, 05:53 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 05:48 PM)julep Wrote:  Your god sounds like he is a mob boss ordering that his dirty money be laundered.
It is NOT possible to forgive without robbing justice. what part of this true principle
you do not understand?

Gods can not rob justice and be Gods.

Yahweh (Jesus) asked His God and His Father to let Him to become Savior. If Yahweh didn't ask God Father to let Him to become Savior, then God Father would never send Yahweh to create this Earth. We would never become mortals. We would never have an opportunity to have exaltation.

So, Gods know eternal laws and act according to those laws.

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20-08-2015, 06:03 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 04:58 PM)Alla Wrote:  Let me try to explain.
There is God Heavenly Father. He lives in his kingdom(let's call it heaven).

and the evidence for that is what?

Quote:Only Gods can live in this kingdom. Gods are those who do NOT break eternal laws.

and the evidence for that is what?

Quote:Mortals or sinners can not live among Gods because they break eternal laws.

and the evidence for that is what?

Quote:If God Father forgives us(cleans us from our sins) and let us enter his kingdom it will be Mercy, but it will be no Justice at all.
If God Father punishes us for sins it will be Justice, but it will be no Mercy.
God Father can not show us Mercy without robbing Justice. It is NOT possible.

I already agreed that mercy and justice are at odds. That's the only thing you're even close to rational about so far.

Quote:So, how can He bring sinners back to His presence? How can we have Mercy so God Father doesn't have to rob Justice? so, He may continue to be God?
He can say and do this: because you are sinners and deserve Justice(death/hell) but I want you to have Mercy (because I love all of you) you are not going to have any covenants with Me.
I will appoint you another God - Yahweh(Jesus Christ, MY Son). You will make covenants with Him.
God Yahweh says: I will save you from your sins, I will wash them away, so, you will be clean and you will be able to return to God Heavenly Father. This is Mercy.
So, Yahweh/Savior/Redeemer makes us free from sins. When we are free from sins, when we are clean we don't need forgiveness from the God Heavenly Father.
Jesus gave us Mercy, Father gave us Mercy by appointing God Yahweh or Savior, and God Father doesn't rob Justice.

Wow, that's one of the most convoluted lines of crap I've ever heard. God #1 can't just forgive so he tells god #2 to "make a covenant" with people so that they can be forgiven? What does "make a covenant" mean to you? How is it possible for god #2 to make covenants when god #1 can't? Why is that different? It sounds like a completely ad-hoc rationalization to pretend to understand something that makes no sense in the first place.

Quote:God Yahweh who was appointed to us by His God and His Father says to those who lived before 1st century BC: I will save you from sins. He said to those who are born after the Atonement : I saved you from your sins.

I assume that "the atonement" means the crucifixion story. That's substitutionary atonement which is a belief that is pointless at best and highly immoral at worst. If I injure somebody then it is up to me to make atonement. If somebody else makes atonement for me it may satisfy the injured party but just transfers the injustice to the third party. It does not wash anything clean, it just shifts the dirt. In cases where the third party is an innocent victim it not only doesn't clear the matter, it adds new injustice. Atonement only makes sense between the injured party and the party that caused the injury.

Quote:ALL people will be saved from hell(death). Nobody has to do anything to have this salvation - immortality.

and the evidence for that is what?

Quote:But if we want to enter God's heaven and to have exaltation, we have to do something. Salvation from death/hell is free for ALL.
Exaltation is not free. We have to work to have it. We have to earn it.

and the evidence for that is... on second thought, nevermind... You are perhaps the most deluded individual I have ever seen. If this is common among Mormons then I truly pity them. All you've done is spout a great many unsupported claims that outline an incredibly twisted theology. There is simply no evidence for any of your beliefs. What a waste of human potential.

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20-08-2015, 06:27 PM
RE: Omnibenevolent (all loving)
(20-08-2015 06:03 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 04:58 PM)Alla Wrote:  Let me try to explain.
There is God Heavenly Father. He lives in his kingdom(let's call it heaven).
and the evidence for that is what?
I am explaining why God Father has to appoint another God - Yahweh so He doesn't have to rob Justice but we can have Mercy.
I am not here to convince you to believe that there is God Father.
(20-08-2015 06:03 PM)unfogged Wrote:  How is it possible for god #2 to make covenants when god #1 can't? Why is that different? It sounds like a completely ad-hoc rationalization to pretend to understand something that makes no sense in the first place.
God Father said to Adam that Justice for sin is death. He said this because it is eternal law and nobody can change it. So, God Father can not forgive Adam without robbing Justice. Adam has to die(hell). This is Justice.
But God Father wants Adam to have Mercy.
How? God Father has to pay for Adams sins so eternal law can be satisfied. God Father has to save Adam by atoning for Adam. God Father is exalted God. Exalted God can not die because He is immortal.
So another God(Yahweh) who is NOT exalted yet can become mortal and atone.
(20-08-2015 06:03 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I assume that "the atonement" means the crucifixion story.
Not exactly. Cross is a place where God Yahweh(Son) who was not yet exalted died. Yahweh(Jesus) atoned for our sins in Gethsemane.
Fall of Adam was in the garden (Eden). Atonement also was in the garden(Gethsemane)
(20-08-2015 06:03 PM)unfogged Wrote:  and the evidence for that is what?
I am not convincing you to believe. I am explaining to you the principle - the Atonement.

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