On Yahweh...
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28-04-2010, 08:39 PM
 
On Yahweh...
Since we can postulate that this universe itself is not eternal, having had a beginning; and that Yahweh, by definition is eternal, then that would imply Yahweh existed for an eternity prior to the creation of the universe.

This creates an infinity problem; consequently I refute the existence of Yahweh, as defined as being eternal.
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28-04-2010, 09:07 PM
RE: On Yahweh...
Now all we need is Martin. Haven't heard that argument before though. I'm going to think it through in the shower, which I will be taking now. I'll give a full reply after.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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28-04-2010, 09:42 PM
 
RE: On Yahweh...
Oki, i've been trying to write something here for about half an hour and always end up rewriting it as i read more ideas about the universe, big bang and eternity but here goes nothing:

Personally, i don't think we can conclude anything about the livespan of the universe since we can't know what was going on before the big bang. Some have theorized that the big bang, which we can observe by calculating the movement of the galaxies backwards, is just one of many. The idea behind that is that the universe is (that is currently expanding) will eventually slow down, come to a halt and start to retract back to it's point of origin so that in the end of our current universe all matter, energy and space will be in the same position it was in at the beginning of the universe and will then eventually start to expand into a new one.

IF, and i stress the word if here, this theory is correct then there is no time limit to the existence of the universe as such, it's only a matter of what state it is in, expanding, retracting or in that initial stage of everything at the same place.

However, by definition, no god or other being of any kind could ever precede the universe not live outside it because the universe is defined as everything in existence.

I apologize in advance for any errors (grammatic, logical or scientific) that might hide in this text and blame it on the fact that where i'm writing this from it's four in the morning Tongue
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28-04-2010, 10:06 PM
RE: On Yahweh...
The only rebuttal I could think of is that god is outside of time, and I'm not even sure what that means. However, if god is outside of time, and eternal is a property defining an amount of time, it seems like god cannot be both eternal and outside of time. But the nature that I assign to god is nonexistence, so I've never had a reason to think such things through.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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29-04-2010, 07:27 AM
 
RE: On Yahweh...
One correction New Frontier. Based on new observations, the universe is not only expanding but is accelerating in that expansion. Scientists do not see any evidence of slowing down to start a new big bang. They attribute this effect to dark matter. The current theory is that the universe will continue to expand until even atoms are ripped apart.

The nature of god does not concern me as I believe there are no gods.
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29-04-2010, 07:50 AM
 
RE: On Yahweh...
The big rip eh? I see more supportive evidence for the heat death scenario.
@ New Frontier

I too agree with something along the lines of what you presented. However, the argument for the origin of the universe as we know it, from a Christian viewpoint, is that of the first cause argument. The fundamental framework for such an argument, is that the universe itself had a beginning, prior to which there was 'nothing', presumably except for Yahweh. Taking into account a defining characteristic of Yahweh, as being eternal, then this would imply it always existed. Accordingly, since Yahweh has always existed, this would mean that prior to the creation of this universe, it would have had to have existed for an infinity.

@Ashley, no you are right. It makes a contradiction which it can't recover from. How can something have existed for a time, when there was no time for it to exist within.
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29-04-2010, 10:21 AM
RE: On Yahweh...
Here's an interesting definition for 'eternal':

existing outside time; as opposed to sempiternal, existing within time but everlastingly.

However, even the idea of something/someone existing outside time would imply that time exists, and if Yahweh didn't have a beginning, that would mean that the time didn't have a beginning either. But since time only exists within the universe, and the universe was created, then how could have Yahweh existed outside time if the time wasn't 'invented', so to speak, till later in the process?

Does that make any sense?

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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29-04-2010, 10:28 AM
 
RE: On Yahweh...
Yes, it does make sense.

Also: "existing outside time; as opposed to sempiternal, existing within time but everlastingly." I think that the first part, 'existing outside time' is stated simply because time would be meaningless, in regards to an internal lifespan, for such an existence.
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29-04-2010, 10:52 AM
 
RE: On Yahweh...
I'm by no means a science expert, especially that of astronomy, but it seems from an immediate logical standpoint that it's not a complete impossibility that the sort of expansion that the Big Bang created billions of years ago could occur again - leaving it safe to say that it is possible that a crunch. Perhaps someone more educated in that specific field could enlighten me to how possible, or uncertain, it is to expect such an eternity in the universe.

As far as Yahweh, Christians tend to generally believe that Yahweh exists outside of the realm of time - and that's their proof of their eternal God. And the idea of Yahweh inventing time while existing outside of it, it's probably more based on some notion that Yahweh is of a different spiritual dimension, which I imagine Christians believe is true as well - and therefore the mortal dimension we live in is just a plane for his "time" in which we all live inside, and he lives outside of. But let's humor the notion that time is something a higher power created - time contains the obvious present, the past that has already happened, and the future which is occurring just a split second ahead of every present moment you are facing. If Yahweh invented time, then that means he also preplanned and determined exactly the course of every action that has ever taken, that is currently taking place, and will ever take place in the future. The fact that I'm writing this right now, is under the notion that Yahweh planned for me to.

This theory of "The Time That Yahweh Built" gives room for theorizing time travel, which is something I abhorrently disagree is even a possibility - but let's continue to humor and speculate. Even on the basis of a continuum paradox, that I imagine guys like Hawking have outlined, in which if you travel backwards to a period in the past, and change something, it fundamentally changes everything that has happened since up until whatever present we are living - assuming that because you can travel into the past and the future - then there is no present, it's just whatever our minds currently process. Now, if in this plane of ability to travel through time, you will obviously have people who look at history, and see calamity that has led to some civilized downfall which "needs to be corrected" - such as Hitler's Nazi Germany. Obviously such a thing has not been corrected, and there are plenty of ill pieces in the historical timeline that have not been corrected either - and as such, what if they were corrected? Let me fast forward a few paragraphs, and let's appear to dissect the paradox of changing things in the time continuum - somewhere along the line someone with the ability to travel through time will have done something that doesn't correct a negative mark in history, but for lack of better terms, "blows up the world". I'm more or less divvying out the possibilities of what could happen in such a pre-determined timeline that Yahweh built. Essentially Yahweh created the pre-determined mortal dimension, only so that we find a way to destroy ourselves in the end anyways. So is it safe to say that their all loving God created this plane just for his own amusement? As an experiment?

Anyone care to extrapolate from this? Maybe I'm overthinking? Not thinking enough?
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29-04-2010, 10:57 AM
 
RE: On Yahweh...
"If Yahweh invented time, then that means he also preplanned and determined exactly the course of every action that has ever taken, that is currently taking place, and will ever take place in the future. The fact that I'm writing this right now, is under the notion that Yahweh planned for me to."

Actually, this is 'exactly' why I think that the idea of free will is impossible in a universe with a god such as Yahweh.

"So is it safe to say that their all loving God created this plane just for his own amusement? As an experiment?"

I elaborated upon this in another thread here, but the gist of it was, that in my eyes Yahweh could only be a sadistic ass. It couldn't possibly be benevolent, let alone omnibenevolent. And even putting that aside, Yahweh is also ascribed as being omnipotent, as well as, and perhaps more importantly, omniscient. Thus proposing that it would be a test would be meaningless, as it would already know the outcome, prior to even creating the experiment to begin with.
Actually, if someone did travel back in time, to prevent an event in the past that they did not like, then the event would never have taken place to begin with; as they would have traveled back in time, to ensure that it never occurred. Thus there would be no reason for them to have traveled back in time, and the universe would need to simply disregard either event, in order to maintain a singular continuous cohesion.
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