On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
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30-04-2010, 09:12 AM
 
On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
Ezekiel 28:15

"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

The above quote, is referring to Lucifer aka Satan, and his perfection, and subsequent fall from grace.

I propose the following hypothesis: Since it is impossible to be perfect, and then become imperfect, as that would defeat the original state of perfection; Ezekiel 28:15 is therefore false.

What does this mean?

A significant amount of deduction may be drawn from this point actually. Since Ezekiel 28:15 has been shown to be false, this means one of two things:

1) Yahweh lied.

or

2) The integrity of the bible, as the word of Yahweh, has been compromised.

Since it would undermine the position of an entity such as Yahweh, in lying. We may therefore safely conclude that the only reasonable explanation is number 2; that the integrity of the bible, as the word of Yahweh, has been compromised.

However, let us carry this one step further. The bible is an encapsulating document that allows for the reader to interface with, and know Yahweh. By compromising its integrity, we may call into question its state of being, as the word of Yahweh; either through divine inspiration, or otherwise. As such, it now becomes necessary to call into question Yahwehs existence as a supernatural entity.

In conclusion, it now becomes possible to conclude one of two things. One, that Yahweh lied, thus compromising its own integrity; or Two, that the evidence for the existence of Yahweh has been compromised.
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30-04-2010, 09:45 AM
 
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
First question I have is by what standards was Lucifer 'perfect' before he was deemed 'imperfect'?

If a stranger sees a child sitting peacefully playing with his/her toys, they may make the statement "Oh, what a perfect child". But, if you ask their parents about the same child, they may say "Yeah, perfect in front of strangers...but let me tell you what he/she did with the cat the other day!"

The point is, yes, I agree with your hypothesis that it is impossible to be perfect. Even the most perfect object (as perfection is implied by human kind) has its imperfections. Just because the imperfections are not immediately obvious, doesn't mean they don't exist (hence my example above).

I would agree that option #2 is most plausible, as this isn't the only contradiction in the bible (think: creation story) and that option #1 would assume one believed that Yahweh existed in order for it to be a true statement.

We need to get a believer to read this through and provide some 'constructive' criticism. But, since all we have is martin, I guess that'll have to do... Big Grin
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30-04-2010, 09:55 AM
 
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
I am familiar with the standard of perfection argument. However, since Lucifer would have been unobservable by humanity prior to his fall, we must therefore conclude that Yahweh itself is the source of the information, in regards to its perfection; thus negating the argument.
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30-04-2010, 10:31 AM
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
Here's my hypothesis:

Let us take a look at what perfection means in religious terms: it means no more, no less than complete obedience of god's commandments. Lucifer was in complete obedience of god's commandments up to a certain point, therefore, in biblical terms, he was perfect up until that point. Now let us admit to this state of perfection, what could have altered it? The Bible says it was pride, but where could this pride have come from? Of course, the change couldn't have taken place without something to determine it. And what else could have determined it than some sort of newly gained knowledge? As Yahweh's 'first mate' he must have had access to some knowledge that the other angels didn't. We can also infer that Yahweh tempted him with this knowledge as he tempted Adam and Eve. So, Lucifer gains this knowledge, becomes aware of his own strength, and tries to overthrow god. At this moment he becomes imperfect, as he no longer obeys god and even opposes him.

Thus, the story of Lucifer becomes a subliminal allegory similar to that of Adam, Eve and the snake, its main idea being that the state of perfection (i.e. obeying and worshiping god unconditionally) is directly dependent on ignorance (one can say that Adam and Eve were 'perfect' too at first, as it's stated that god was pleased with his creation) and is meant to ensure that people don't ask too many question and do what they are told, lest they should lose their 'perfection' in the eyes of god.

This story was also designed to provide an explanation for the origin of evil. Since god was the one and only creator of the world, then evil couldn't have originated from a different source. But then, if god is the supreme good force in the universe, how could he have created an evil being? So they came up with this contrivance: Satan was created good but he was corrupted by pride (i.e. knowledge) and fell from grace, from his own fault and became the epitome of everything that is evil.

To sum it all up: loss of perfection = loss of ignorance.

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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30-04-2010, 10:43 AM
 
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
Yes, but what I am arguing is that the loss of that perfection wasn't possible to begin with. As to be perfect is to be without flaws; one can not become imperfect, from a previously perfect state. As that would imply that there was room for improvement, as well as degradation, and that contradicts the state of being perfect.
Corrupted allegories like these are prone to originate when one incorporates and bastardizes another mythos, into ones own. Keeping in line with such thought, I see Lucifer as being the corrupted concept of Angra Mainyu.
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30-04-2010, 10:53 AM
 
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
I've removed my post...i was incorrect...sorry
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30-04-2010, 10:58 AM
 
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
(Laughter) Awesome Superman; just awesome. ^_^

But seriously...if one continues to build off from learned information, then that, in and of itself, is a recipe for achieving perfection. Continuously refining until it is not able to be refined anymore; welcome to the scientific method.
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30-04-2010, 11:06 AM
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
(30-04-2010 10:43 AM)Ceryle Wrote:  As to be perfect is to be without flaws; one can not become imperfect, from a previously perfect state.

My point was that perfection has a certain connotation in this context, which referred to the quality of obeying god's unconditionally. The term is here defined with respect to a point of reference, i.e. god, and therefore we may speak of 'relative' perfection. In strictly biblical terms, absolute perfection would be Yahweh, all else is relative. Lucifer was perfect as long as he abode by Yahweh's rules. The moment he ceased to comply was the moment he ceased to be perfect. This is why your argument is flawed. Don't get me wrong, I perfectly understand and agree with it; but it is flawed in the eyes of a theist, because in their view, it is only god that decides what is perfect and what is not perfect, and for how long something is perfect, according to his own standards, of his own making.

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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30-04-2010, 11:27 AM
 
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
"Lucifer was perfect as long as he abode by Yahweh's rules. The moment he ceased to comply was the moment he ceased to be perfect."

Under what conditions could a perfect entity, stop behaving in a perfect manner; after having been created by an infinitely perfect entity?

{Edit} Lol, conditional perfection. Reminds me of the same logic used to describe Yahweh as an unconditionally loving entity...so long as you adhere to the conditions of that love.
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30-04-2010, 11:39 AM
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
I already explained that. 'Perfection' entails ignorance of the knowledge reserved only to the 'infinitely perfect being', for with this knowledge comes power. The framework of Yahweh's rules is a closed system; once you step out of it you stop being perfect. The condition for stepping out of this closed system is gaining knowledge from outside of it. It's the same with atheists: you become one only if you gain knowledge outside of religion, and act accordingly.

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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