On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
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30-04-2010, 11:45 AM
 
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
I'm not really catching on; how could that possibly be regarded as perfection?

As you said, it only works within a closed system, the problem though, is that perfection should not have limitations. It'd be like saying I have perfect knowledge, except for 'here', 'here' and...'here'. No matter how one looks at it, it still wouldn't be perfect knowledge; it could only be imperfect knowledge from the beginning.
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30-04-2010, 11:59 AM
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
Exactly. That's the very point I was trying to make. It's a relative perfection, therefore, it's not 'real' perfection.

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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30-04-2010, 12:07 PM
 
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
There is only one kind of perfection though; that is, the flawless variety.

The word used is perfection, therefore, it would have needed to be without flaws; as such, stating that it was perfect, until it became imperfect, is an illogical statement. By default, it would have needed to be unconditional perfection, as redundant as that is.

It's not like there is 'real' or 'false' perfection, there is just perfection, or lack thereof.
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30-04-2010, 12:15 PM
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
Of course. But that depends on how you define perfection. For you see, everyone has their own standards. What is 'perfect' to me might not be so to you, and viceversa. Sure, you would say that perfection means absolute flawlessness. But exactly what would this flawlessness be defined as? More precisely, what is a flaw? Is it an absolute notion or is it a relative one? For if it is absolute, then it must be universally accepted as such. If not, then absolute perfection cannot exist.

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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30-04-2010, 12:22 PM
 
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
If we are to call into question the definition of what it means to be perfect, then we can no longer validate Yahwehs own perfection; at which point the entire debate crumbles in the first place.
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30-04-2010, 02:59 PM
 
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
From Encyclopedia Britannica's World Religions CD:

"In the Book of Job, Satan appears as the partner of God, who on behalf of God puts the righteous one to the test. Only in postbiblical Judaism does the devil become the adversary of God, the prince of angels, who, created by God and placed at the head of the angelic hosts, entices some of the angels into revolt against God. In punishment for his rebellion he is cast from heaven together with his mutinous entourage, which were transformed into demons. As ruler over the fallen angels he continues the struggle against the Kingdom of God by seeking to seduce humans into sin, by trying to disrupt God's plan for salvation, and by appearing before God as a slanderer and accuser of saints, so as to reduce the number of those chosen for the Kingdom of God.

Thus, Satan is a creature of God, who has his being and essence from God; he is the partner of God in the drama of the history of salvation; and he is the rival of God, who fights against God's plan of salvation."

I don't think we can go after Satan, in determining his perfection/imperfection, simply because from his point of view, he IS perfect. From Yahweh's point of view, Lucifer was perfect, but then wasn't when he revolted.

What we can only look at is Yahweh, and the concept of Yahweh's perfection. Since many have attributed omnibenevolence, omnipotence, and omniscience, and since he has shown himself to be NONE of these, he is not perfect, nor shall he ever be.

If we start with Yahweh and the statement above, then we can probably conclude that anything Yahweh has created (angels or humanity) are not perfect as a result of his own imperfection.

Something I can relate to...I am not perfect (I know, total shocker), but I had thought that my children would be 'more' perfect than me (by what standard, I don't know). I have seen character flaws in both my kids, which shows their humanity. If we say that no one should ever err, then we are setting a precedence that can never be achieved. But, as stated earlier in this post, nothing is ever perfect, so perfect cannot stem from imperfect.

Hope that wasn't overly confusing...
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30-04-2010, 03:20 PM
 
RE: On imperfect perfection, a refutation of the bible and Yahweh
I don't think we can go after Satan, in determining his perfection/imperfection, simply because from his point of view, he IS perfect. From Yahweh's point of view, Lucifer was perfect, but then wasn't when he revolted.

That is the crux of my argument. 'From Yahweh's point of view, Lucifer was perfect, but then wasn't when he revolted.' This, isn't possible.

And, no, what you posted was not confusing.
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