On the Aurora shooting
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25-07-2012, 05:41 AM
RE: On the Aurora shooting
Hey, Filox.

This partucular thread actually has a lot to do with Atheism and Theism. And that's the problem.

I'm sure people will disagree, but this needs to be said.

People were murdered. That's what happened. And now a lot of you are using this incident as a way to attack Theists over their coping mechanism. Are you really so desperate to call Theists stupid that you're willing to use this tragedy to do it? What's wrong with you?

I'm reminded of that scene in Saving Private Ryan where the boys are searching through dog tags, joking, while the Airborne troops walk past with that "what's wrong with you" look on their face.

I'm not trying to attack anyone or condemn anyone. I'm just trying to point something. I'm hoping you'll take it from there.

To address some other points:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that he was a neuroscientist.

There is way more gun violence in the States than anywhere else, like by three orders of magnitude. More Americans have been killed by Americans than American soldiers killed by enemy soldiers. The US is swimming in guns. Anyone who says guns either do or don't cause violence is selling something because life isn't instigated by single determinants, but rather by multiple determinants. That being said, guns are in there. It needs to be discussed. And fuck you Fox news for making your talking point of the day, "this isn't the time to have a national discussion on guns." You make me want to vomit you callous bastards. And the fucking audacity to then accuse people who want to discuss the gun issue of politicising the tragedy is just reprehensible.

"Cuz he's crazy," is another example of simplified single determinant thinking. It's way more complex than that. We'll only prevent further tragedies like this if we learn to understand why they happen rather than blame someone/something for it.

ABC demonstrated the worst sickness in journalism. Journalists have a legal, not just a moral, responsibility to the truth and they are currently ignoring both because their responsibility is now to add revenue. The Tea Party thing was disgusting and 100% untrue. That sort of thing, reporting unchecked slanderous nonsense as fact, should be criminal.

I offer the families of the killed and wounded my deepest sympathy.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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25-07-2012, 07:53 AM
RE: On the Aurora shooting
Yes Ghost I did see the error of my views...

But what you fail to remember is that not everyone has empathy. Some people just don't care for others, some have just seen too much shit that nothing can touch them anymore... The scene from S.P.Ryan is a great example of human diversity. People are different, that is it. You say this is a tragedy and I agree with you, but on the other hand, shit much worse than this happens all the time, are we suppose to feel bad for everyone? Then we will be the ones in problems, that would just not work...

I personally try not to think too much about stuff like this. I do feel sorry, but nothing too much, or else I would loose myself in worlds injustice. We all cope with various problems differently.

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25-07-2012, 08:00 AM
RE: On the Aurora shooting
Hey Sean, you know I like you, dude... you know I LOVE talking/debating with you. You know I respect you.

However, I wish people wouldn't turn this into a religious thing. Out of respect to the families affected by this, if they turn to God, let them turn to God. If they choose to not turn to God, that's their choice too.

I don't think it's proper to use this tragedy as a springboard for religious debate or a reaffirmation of your views. I'm sorry. I just can't support this blog post.

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25-07-2012, 10:10 AM
RE: On the Aurora shooting
(25-07-2012 08:00 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Hey Sean, you know I like you, dude... you know I LOVE talking/debating with you. You know I respect you.

However, I wish people wouldn't turn this into a religious thing. Out of respect to the families affected by this, if they turn to God, let them turn to God. If they choose to not turn to God, that's their choice too.

I don't think it's proper to use this tragedy as a springboard for religious debate or a reaffirmation of your views. I'm sorry. I just can't support this blog post.

KC -- Believe it or not, I would never consider turning this event into a religious matter.

Certain religious and political leaders, obviously not all, but some - did. I was simply responding to their ridiculous comments. That it was in my hometown, and killed people that were friends of friends makes it hurt even more...

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25-07-2012, 10:16 AM
RE: On the Aurora shooting
(25-07-2012 10:10 AM)Seasbury Wrote:  
(25-07-2012 08:00 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Hey Sean, you know I like you, dude... you know I LOVE talking/debating with you. You know I respect you.

However, I wish people wouldn't turn this into a religious thing. Out of respect to the families affected by this, if they turn to God, let them turn to God. If they choose to not turn to God, that's their choice too.

I don't think it's proper to use this tragedy as a springboard for religious debate or a reaffirmation of your views. I'm sorry. I just can't support this blog post.

KC -- Believe it or not, I would never consider turning this event into a religious matter.

Certain religious and political leaders, obviously not all, but some - did. I was simply responding to their ridiculous comments. That it was in my hometown, and killed people that were friends of friends makes it hurt even more...

Ahh, didn't understand that it was answer.

Sorry about that.

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25-07-2012, 03:11 PM
RE: On the Aurora shooting
(25-07-2012 05:41 AM)Ghost Wrote:  And now a lot of you are using this incident as a way to attack Theists over their coping mechanism.

Speaking for myself and perhaps some other atheists, my attack on theists is not about their coping mechanism. It is rather for their failure to condemn an entity that they worship, who, depending on their particular view, either deliberately planned for this event to occur, or would have known in advance that the event would happen, and had the power to stop it. For example, our friend KingsChosen, who posted earlier that he can't support this thread - I don't wonder why. He believes that God has everything planned, that he and everyone else are just actors going through the motions pre-designed for them by God. That means that he believes that god planned the Aurora shooting. He won't say it so I have to say it for him. His God decided that some parents would bring a baby, others would bring a six year old, etc., and that the guy would go crazy and shoot people. Then he has the nerve to WORSHIP THIS GOD. Think about that. He goes to church on the Sunday after the Aurora shooting, steps into "God's house" and WORSHIPS THE DESIGNER OF THE AURORA SHOOTING. Yeah, praise God, woooh! God loves us! Our god is an awesome god! Do you see the disconnect here? That's why I connect the dots and say so-and-so is dead, thank god!

Now does KC say he has a problem with God - oh no, he has a problem with this thread (which killed no one) or with me (ditto) or someone else for talking about it in this thread - we're not being sensitive. Can you understand now why we would describe this god character as a dickhead?

Now if you want to ask, as you did elsewhere, how I can criticize an entity that I know doesn't exist, I think it's clear that I'm criticizing a worldview (belief in god), and using all of the parameters supplied as part of that worldview (all known characteristics of the god of that worldview). But ultimately I'm criticizing the believer for an aggregious and offensive failure to think.
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25-07-2012, 03:34 PM
RE: On the Aurora shooting
Why am I constantly getting brought up?

The only thing I said was that I don't support the idea of someone using this tragedy as a springboard of debate regarding belief or lack of belief. It's just not appropriate. It's using a tragedy as momentum for a chosen cause.

That's all I said.

As far as what you said about my beliefs, that is true. God has designed and planned every piece of minutia ever... including this. Morally, I can't understand why He would do this. This whole ordeal sickens me to my very core... I'm deeply distraught by it... I've been brought to tears many times because of it. But I'm not infinite. I'm not all knowing. I'm not all powerful. I don't have the infinite foresight that God has. I don't why He planned this and for what reason, but He did, and I accept that.

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25-07-2012, 05:20 PM
RE: On the Aurora shooting
(25-07-2012 05:41 AM)Ghost Wrote:  That being said, guns are in there. It needs to be discussed. And fuck you Fox news for making your talking point of the day, "this isn't the time to have a national discussion on guns."

Classic.

Jon Stewart made fun of this, too, and I think he had a good point: If a mass shooting that everyone is talking about isn't the time to discuss gun violence, what is? I can understand if FOX News stated that a single case of gun violence doesn't make it immediately important (and they'd be right -- we're victims of the Availability Heuristic) but what they're doing is blatant denial... they're asking us to just ignore a possible cause of this catastrophe.

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25-07-2012, 05:29 PM
RE: On the Aurora shooting
(25-07-2012 03:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  you said about my beliefs, that is true. God has designed and planned every piece of minutia ever... including this. Morally, I can't understand why He would do this. This whole ordeal sickens me to my very core... I'm deeply distraught by it... I've been brought to tears many times because of it. But I'm not infinite. I'm not all knowing. I'm not all powerful. I don't have the infinite foresight that God has. I don't why He planned this and for what reason, but He did, and I accept that.

But shouldn't you know why? If you asked God to let you in on His plan, you'd expect an answer, right? You don't have to be all-knowing just to know the answer to this question, and if God knows the answer (by being all-knowing), then He could tell you. And if this tragedy is causing you (and many others) pain or doubt, wouldn't it make sense for God to relieve both by giving you critical information on what the benefit of this is? I know that if I accidentally killed a man, I'd be very relieved to find out that he was going to murder 5 others down the line if I hadn't done it. Because of this, I expect that knowing the benefit of God's plan in this case would make you much happier.

Of course, atheists have an answer to the question of "why God allows bad things to happen", and it makes rational sense. If there is no God and no "God's plan" then probability and natural causes are the only explanation necessary. We don't have to look deeper into events or find explanations for why those events are ultimately beneficial because there isn't a hidden depth to them or an ultimate benefit.

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25-07-2012, 06:30 PM
RE: On the Aurora shooting
(25-07-2012 03:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Why am I constantly getting brought up?

Well, from your worldview it's because God keeps planning it that way. But from the perspective of reality the reasons are:

- you run the biggest theist thread in these parts, so you're the most visible theist

- your god delusion is the most extreme and fully formed, thus it serves as a leading benchmark

- your prosletyzing mission puts a target on your back.

(25-07-2012 03:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The only thing I said was that I don't support the idea of someone using this tragedy as a springboard of debate regarding belief or lack of belief. It's just not appropriate. It's using a tragedy as momentum for a chosen cause.

I disagree. Your discomfort stems from confronting the reality of your position. You WORSHIP the entity most responsible for the Aurora shooting. You teach your children to worship it. That's a horrific burden to bear, and you do your best to avoid confronting it, but on occasion you can't avoid it.

(25-07-2012 03:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  But I'm not infinite. I'm not all knowing. I'm not all powerful. I don't have the infinite foresight that God has. I don't why He planned this and for what reason, but He did, and I accept that.

No one has those qualities so get over it. Just stand up for what you believe, that god planned it, and god is good, so the Aurora killings are something you thank god for.
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