On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
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21-03-2017, 06:15 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 06:02 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 06:01 AM)theBorg Wrote:  It is complicated. The more simple analysis is following: God makes only Good, devil does only evil.

Who created the devil?

You're boring....Drinking Beverage

Doesnt God also make the evil?

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

I don't want Fop, goddamn it! I'm a Dapper Dan man!
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21-03-2017, 06:19 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 06:15 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 06:02 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Who created the devil?

You're boring....Drinking Beverage

Doesnt God also make the evil?

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

> Like most Christians, Borgie is a Bible illiterate. Dodgy
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21-03-2017, 06:31 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 06:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Quit with the strawman, I never claimed, or implied that atheists can't discuss morality with or without God, or have moral discussions.

Liar. Whenever posters discuss morality, you start bawling "subjective morality". Even when posters already acknowledge and embrace the concept. How many times have you compared morality to music preference? You don't think that trivializes the discussion?

(21-03-2017 06:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm merely reminding folks who seem to forgot, that all moral arguments, views, positions, are ultimately subjectively grounded.

Another lie. Or the same lie repeated. Is that how it works? Keep repeating the lie until you believe it?

(21-03-2017 06:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm not trolling you. I'm not attacking any of you personally. It's just that people tend to be emotionally invested in their moral positions, and as a result often are sensitive to people speaking of morality as a subjective thing, even if at some level they acknowledge it is. They like to keep it as their dirty little secret, and don't like it when this is highlighted so blazingly and in the open.

You're a liar. Many posters here, myself included, state that morality IS subjective. You repeatedly state that any indictment of god is invalid because of subjective morality. So go fuck yourself with your own strawman.

You ARE a troll. Don't play your fucking word games. You can troll a group just as easily as an individual.

Stop playing the martyr, acting like you're the messenger that no one wants to hear. You're nothing but a liar and a contemptible troll.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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21-03-2017, 07:01 AM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2017 07:15 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 06:31 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  You're a liar. Many posters here, myself included, state that morality IS subjective. You repeatedly state that any indictment of god is invalid because of subjective morality. So go fuck yourself with your own strawman.

See a strawman.

I claimed the indictment is subjective, not invalid. I never said it was invalid, just like your subjective opinion on movies, food, books, etc.. is not invalid. So quit putting claims into my mouth.

Their have been questions about whose subjective criteria are we talking about, when claiming God is not good, the claimants own personal criteria, liberal humanistic subjective criteria, or the subjective moral criteria of the early writers of scripture and their community, and a whole lot of waffling on this question by parties here.

There have also been questions about whether or not morality is subjective, or some hybrid between subjective and objective etc...

What there hasn't been is questions or claims by me about the invalidity of yours or anyone else moral stances.

Quote:You ARE a troll.

I haven't trolled you. You're just too easily butt hurt, over nothing.

Quote:t. How many times have you compared morality to music preference?

A billion times. I've compared subjective morality, to variety of categories of subjective.

Quote:You don't think that trivializes the discussion?

It trivializes the discussion no more than claiming that morality is subjective trivializes the discussion. To claim morality is subjective, and then accuse those who treat it as such trivializing it, is just silly. Just like claiming morality is subjective, while with the other side of your mouth trying to speak of it, and treat moral judgments as objective ones.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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21-03-2017, 07:12 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 07:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I haven't trolled you. You're just too easily butt hurt, over nothing.

Go outside and play tommy. The grown-ups are trying to talk.

Have a cookie.
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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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21-03-2017, 07:23 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 07:12 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Go outside and play tommy. The grown-ups are trying to talk.

Ah huh, continuing on.........

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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21-03-2017, 07:31 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 07:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Their have been questions about whose subjective criteria are we talking about, when claiming God is not good, the claimants own personal criteria, liberal humanistic subjective criteria, or the subjective moral criteria of the early writers of scripture and their community, and a whole lot of waffling on this question by parties here.

So do you think the criteria of early writers of scripture or modern "humanistic" criteria are better criteria for morality?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-03-2017, 07:44 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 07:31 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So do you think the criteria of early writers of scripture or modern "humanistic" criteria are better criteria for morality?

Early writers, because they at least fool people into believing that they have actual moral responsibilities and duties, fool people into thinking there's such a thing as moral laws, rather than believing that morality is subjective, at the whims of their own personal opinion.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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21-03-2017, 07:48 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 07:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 07:31 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So do you think the criteria of early writers of scripture or modern "humanistic" criteria are better criteria for morality?

Early writers, because they at least fool people into believing that they have actual moral responsibilities and duties, fool people into thinking there's such a thing as moral laws, rather than believing that morality is subjective, at the whims of their own personal opinion.

Morality is subjective does not imply that *laws* are a pick-and-choose affair. So I fail to see the utility of fooling people?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-03-2017, 08:26 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 07:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  Morality is subjective does not imply that *laws* are a pick-and-choose affair. So I fail to see the utility of fooling people?

Because not all moral dictates, or principles are reducible to legal laws, past or present. Living and behaving within the limits of the legal law doesn't necessarily make you a good or moral person.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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