On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
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21-03-2017, 09:24 PM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 05:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 04:15 PM)JesseB Wrote:  In short I'm saying if you or anyone honestly thinks those are viable positions, you simply haven't spent enough time considering the subject. They are as reprehensible as the morality spouted by the holy book of your god.

Judging that I subscribe to some version of 3 and 4, and I live a pretty good life, with strong friendships, a strong community, a wife, etc..., and do pretty well professionally, etc... And in no way shape or form worse than an individual who subscribes to your secular humanistic version of morality, then how exactly it's not viable is not clear.

If I'm suppose to imagine that I would be better off subscribing to secular humanism, I'd like to hear exactly how so?

LOL what is easy to see is rarely the full picture. When you end up inadvertently killing off the entire species through reckless consumption of fossil fuels ect you'll see what I mean.

I'm not saying that in your narrow little world you can't live happy to yourself. I'm saying your actions have consequences. If you care nothing for anything outside the short time span you are alive, or outside those people directly involved in your life, your actions will still have consequences. You're just spared from knowing that you fucked someone over by hiding in your little bubble. OH that's right you don't know them you don't give a fuck about them, I forgot.

By the way. Ever read the story of the good Samaritan? (cough)

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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21-03-2017, 11:04 PM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 06:38 PM)Glossophile Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 03:50 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I didn’t know you represented all the atheists voices in this thread, apparently you haven’t been paying attention to whats been said by them:

Like: “Cheerful Charlie: “No matter how you twist and turn, once one realizes that God is not good, by the Bible's own standards” [...] He’s clearly appealing to the biblical standards, and not as you put by his subjective “humanist moral criteria”

Of course I don't speak for all atheists here, but given that atheists don't believe in the authority of the Bible, it's a pretty safe bet that none of them make any moral evaluations according to its standards. If I understand him correctly, Charlie was pointing out that, even if we accept God's words and deeds in the Bible as our moral guide, that guide is self-contradictory. He was not saying that the Biblical example is the usual standard choice for atheists whenever they criticize God's character as shown by his actions (of course, I invite Charlie to correct me if I am indeed misrepresenting him).

No, you have it correct. My observation was that Bible lists a series of sub-goodness that God does not himself follow. Thus demonstrating from the Bible's own definitions, God is not good. God is not merciful, just, fair or compassionate.

I developed this line of thought specifically because in the past, theists have actually tried to redefine "good" as some mysterious thing we mere mortals cannot define so as to save appearance when we atheists note God is said to do things that are not morally good. I have actually has theists try this sophistry out on me online.

This sub-goodness argument as I call it was specifically meant to counter that sort of obfustication, that intellectual nihilism, where common words are redefined by theists to pretend God is good when obviously, God is not morally good at all.
To continue on in this vein, the theist then is forced to redefine merciful, compassionate, just and fair to save appearances. Or play games like we see here. Strawmen.

It's not about saving appearances. It's all about examining the basic claims about God's nature from what is claimed to be infallible revelation.

What we see here is proof that some people will not allow logic and facts get in the way of misplaced belief or objectively false theological claims. For all my life, theist have told me to read the Bible. I did so. Bible based theology self destructs when you read it carefully.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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22-03-2017, 01:08 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
Anyone who actually lived according to what the bible said would be dead or in prison very quickly.

If you're going to pick a role model, Yahweh is about the worst you could ever pick. Allah is possibly even worse, although it's really the same character.

Randomly picking a character from a book and doing what they say is not "objective morality", it's just as subjective as anyone else. It's not even objective in the sense that it's free from personal opinions, because of the ludicrously vast number of "interpretations" of what the character wants.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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22-03-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 06:02 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 06:01 AM)theBorg Wrote:  It is complicated. The more simple analysis is following: God makes only Good, devil does only evil.

Who created the devil?
......
The Jesus Christ has created the holy angel Lucifer. The Jesus has not created the devils.
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22-03-2017, 12:25 PM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(21-03-2017 06:15 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 06:02 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Who created the devil?

You're boring....Drinking Beverage

Doesnt God also make the evil?

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."
By killing the trolls and other criminals, the Jesus Christ makes only Good. Yes
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22-03-2017, 12:43 PM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(22-03-2017 12:23 PM)theBorg Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 06:02 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Who created the devil?
......
The Jesus Christ has created the holy angel Lucifer. The Jesus has not created the devils.

Are you saying that Lucifer created all of the lesser demons?

Your grasp of biblical mythology is as pathetic as your grasp of reality.

You fail at understanding mythology or reality.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-03-2017, 12:57 PM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(22-03-2017 12:43 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 12:23 PM)theBorg Wrote:  The Jesus Christ has created the holy angel Lucifer. The Jesus has not created the devils.

Are you saying that Lucifer created all of the lesser demons?
..........
Yes, the angels, which have fallen out of Reality, are all caused by the satan. The sin does not exist, and the devils are the sin's embodiment.
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22-03-2017, 01:15 PM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(22-03-2017 12:57 PM)theBorg Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 12:43 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Are you saying that Lucifer created all of the lesser demons?
..........
Yes, the angels, which have fallen out of Reality, are all caused by the satan. The sin does not exist, and the devils are the sin's embodiment.

Where in the bible does it say that Satan created the angels that followed him in his rebellion against god?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-03-2017, 01:28 PM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(22-03-2017 01:15 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 12:57 PM)theBorg Wrote:  Yes, the angels, which have fallen out of Reality, are all caused by the satan. The sin does not exist, and the devils are the sin's embodiment.

Where in the bible does it say that Satan created the angels that followed him in his rebellion against god?

What the fuck? he really said that??!!

I mean.... a lot of what we know about Satan and his fall doesn't come from the bible (or at least the current cannons of the bible used today). But NO WHERE does it say Satan caused sin, or that Satan created demons. Demons are supposedly fallen ANGELS who decided to rebel against god, supposedly Satan rebelled because he thought he was the most beautiful creation and was jealous of humans.

Sin is defined as doing anything not ordered by god. Meaning if god commanded you to commit genocide, refusing to commit genocide would be a sin. When god asked whatshisface to sacrifice his son, it would have been a sin not to. That he was allowed to sacrifice an animal in the end instead is kinda irrelevant. The fact is god ordered the murder and massacre and rape of thousands of children. By bible standards that means refusing to rape children is a sin (at the very least in those specific instances). And you wonder why we call god a reprehensible character???!!!!

Get your fucking shit together shmorgasborg.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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22-03-2017, 01:34 PM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(22-03-2017 12:57 PM)theBorg Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 12:43 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Are you saying that Lucifer created all of the lesser demons?
..........
Yes, the angels, which have fallen out of Reality, are all caused by the satan. The sin does not exist, and the devils are the sin's embodiment.

Another thing, why do you keep asserting sin does not exist?

If you define sin as disobedience to the god of the bible, then it most certainly does exist in abundance. You are actually disregarding your own bible to make this assertion.

I rode my bike on Sunday and didn't go to church, pretty sure that violates the Sabbath.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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