On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
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15-03-2017, 08:35 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(15-03-2017 07:30 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  In that last bit... you say to them to you... it's not you they're trying to justify themselves too

It's not to OTHERS it's to themselves or if they wanted an honest expulsion of the claims and ideas they possess. Other folks is not what they need to hold out towards but if that motivates you, it can be your case.




Just as you aren't here justifying yourself or belief to people here. If you're gonna do it, to some integral notion of doing it to do it makes more impact.

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Morality is self-justifying, like every other subjective view. It's good, merely because one feels it's good. Requiring nothing more than that to justify it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-03-2017, 08:39 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(15-03-2017 08:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 07:30 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  In that last bit... you say to them to you... it's not you they're trying to justify themselves too

It's not to OTHERS it's to themselves or if they wanted an honest expulsion of the claims and ideas they possess. Other folks is not what they need to hold out towards but if that motivates you, it can be your case.




Just as you aren't here justifying yourself or belief to people here. If you're gonna do it, to some integral notion of doing it to do it makes more impact.

Why panic when you can panik? via da Tapatalk

Morality is self-justifying, like every other subjective view. It's good, merely because one feels it's good. Requiring nothing more than that to justify it.

I actually consider a number of things when deciding what is the moral action. Many times, it's the action that does NOT feel good. You're scary.
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15-03-2017, 08:52 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(15-03-2017 08:39 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  I actually consider a number of things when deciding what is the moral action. Many times, it's the action that does NOT feel good.

I actually consider a number of things when deciding which restaurant to eat, which entree I want to order, which dish tastes good, doesn't make it any less self-justifying.

Quote: You're scary.

Your fears are not of my concern.

Geese are always afraid of wolves, but the wolves don't mind, because the geese are quite tasty.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-03-2017, 10:53 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(15-03-2017 08:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 07:30 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  In that last bit... you say to them to you... it's not you they're trying to justify themselves too

It's not to OTHERS it's to themselves or if they wanted an honest expulsion of the claims and ideas they possess. Other folks is not what they need to hold out towards but if that motivates you, it can be your case.




Just as you aren't here justifying yourself or belief to people here. If you're gonna do it, to some integral notion of doing it to do it makes more impact.

Why panic when you can panik? via da Tapatalk

Morality is self-justifying, like every other subjective view. It's good, merely because one feels it's good. Requiring nothing more than that to justify it.
Only if you don't care for some understanding of self evaluation.

Even at a restaurant it's so... why do I prefer pork to Ham or whatever quandary doesn't solely need to settle for satisfaction by., "I do."

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"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-03-2017, 11:19 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(15-03-2017 06:23 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-03-2017 05:45 PM)Glossophile Wrote:  The problem, of course, is that theists baldly presuppose P1 and use that assumption to guide their interpretation of scripture. I don't think it ever occurs to the typical theist that P1 itself needs justification until and unless they're confronted by a non-believer. So when they are finally challenged to justify it, I don't think they really know any other way to do so besides appealing to how they interpret scripture. In a sense, they have no choice but to be circular.

Theist don't need to justify P1, because Good is subjective, there are no right or wrong answers to what's morally Good, given that morality is subjective, and is matter of one's own personal, and perhaps communities view of it. An atheist may disagree with what a theist thinks is good, but it's more akin to two people disagreeing on what good food, or good music is, than the shape of the earth.

A problem that should be somewhat obvious, when comparing people who operate under two different foundational moral assumptions, such as one that treats morality as a matter of consequences, and a another that treats morality as a matter of perceived intentions.

There you go again, trying to lure people down your little rabbit hole / trap.
It's REALLY old, Tomato. Give it up. We've seen all your bullshit before.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-03-2017, 11:23 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(15-03-2017 10:53 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Even at a restaurant it's so... why do I prefer pork to Ham or whatever quandary doesn't solely need to settle for satisfaction by., "I do."

No they can very well state why they prefer pork to Ham, or whatever quandary, the point is that since it's ultimately a subjective statement, they are neither wrong, nor right. And the rules, justifications, criticisms that apply to objective claims, don't apply to subjective ones.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-03-2017, 11:39 AM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2017 11:49 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(15-03-2017 08:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Morality is self-justifying, like every other subjective view. It's good, merely because one feels it's good. Requiring nothing more than that to justify it.

Actually it isn't.
But since you are an ignorant dude, who never got an education, and never studied Ethics or Philosophy, you wouldn't know "morality" from a hole in the ground.

There are a number of moral / ethical systems. None of them say what you claim they say, (that morality is "subjective"). There are libraries FULL of books on the subjects, as well as legal libraries codifying ethical thought into LAW, and accepted cultural systems. Stop being such an ignorant fool. Your fake analogy to food is the fallacy of the false analogy. It's probably also a STRAWMAN, you dunce. Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-03-2017, 11:50 AM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(15-03-2017 08:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 08:39 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  I actually consider a number of things when deciding what is the moral action. Many times, it's the action that does NOT feel good.

I actually consider a number of things when deciding which restaurant to eat, which entree I want to order, which dish tastes good, doesn't make it any less self-justifying.

Which, if eating at a restaurant was a moral conundrum, I might agree.
Quote: You're scary.

Your fears are not of my concern.

Geese are always afraid of wolves, but the wolves don't mind, because the geese are quite tasty.

Well, then eat me.
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15-03-2017, 12:18 PM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(15-03-2017 11:23 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 10:53 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Even at a restaurant it's so... why do I prefer pork to Ham or whatever quandary doesn't solely need to settle for satisfaction by., "I do."

No they can very well state why they prefer pork to Ham, or whatever quandary, the point is that since it's ultimately a subjective statement, they are neither wrong, nor right. And the rules, justifications, criticisms that apply to objective claims, don't apply to subjective ones.

That's your claim... not really pushed outward. To support that you'd have go justify or get critics countering to defend your subjective claim.

But sticking to your all or nothing view scope again.

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"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-03-2017, 12:28 PM
RE: On the Circularity of Presupposing God's Goodness
(15-03-2017 11:50 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 08:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I actually consider a number of things when deciding which restaurant to eat, which entree I want to order, which dish tastes good, doesn't make it any less self-justifying.

Which, if eating at a restaurant was a moral conundrum, I might agree.

Your fears are not of my concern.

Geese are always afraid of wolves, but the wolves don't mind, because the geese are quite tasty.

Well, then eat me.

@Tomwhateveryournameis - First your position is the exact same kind of reasoning one lacking in empathy, or a psychopath would be liable to use. Not making any accusations, just pointing it out.

@Kemo Boy - Kinky

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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