On the Existence of Garage Dragons
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20-08-2015, 03:48 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 03:33 PM)Free Wrote:  "I do not accept the belief that the existence of God is impossible."

What do you think that means?

If you do not accept the belief that the existence of God is impossible, then you are therefore rejecting the belief that the existence of God is impossible. That is glaringly obvious.

Hence, if you do not accept the belief that the existence of God is impossible, then by necessity you default to the belief that teh existence of God is possible.

You can't have one without the other.

There is a sealed jar with marbles.
A person tells me that there are an even number of marbles in the jar.
I don't accept this as truth.
Does this then mean that I believe there are an odd number of marbles in the jar?

Or does this mean that I don't know whether there are an odd or even number of marbles in the jar?
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20-08-2015, 03:51 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 03:45 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  "There is no fire-breathing dragon in my garage, but there is a fire-breathing dragon in my garage" absolutely is self-contradictory.
You pulled this one out your arse didn't you.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage
Quote:A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage.
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20-08-2015, 03:52 PM
On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 03:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 02:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your example has no evidence and no plausibility, only an assumption.

Perhaps I should trace my steps back a bit, to the initial confusion, and try again.
Quote:“No, either we have evidence (direct or in-direct) for the existence of these substances and they are therefore likely/plausible to exist, or they are deemed non-existient until such time as actual evidence demonstrates plausibility”

This seems to be a false dichotomy.

A persons position can be he doesn’t know whether something exists or not, just like I don’t know if you have an American car or not. I don’t assume you don’t have one, based on my lack of evidence. It makes as much sense to default to the position that you don’t have an American car, as it would be to default to “non-existent” regarding other substances in the universe that have not been discovered yet.

I don’t know whether there is or not. If I assumed other substances were non-existent, it would be based on a belief that the substance we currently have evidence for, is all there is.

Quote:Liars like you and other theists, Why do you think I am on an atheist forum you dishonest twit?

If you really want me to answer that question, than sure. You're here to find a venue to take out your personal frustrations on, duh. I’m assuming your life is occupied by a variety of theists, perhaps your father, family, former acquaintances, and it’s likely that whatever feelings you assign to them, are being projected on to other theists. I’m not sure how else to interpret your maladaptive behavior.

Without evidence of plausibility for something to exist, there can be no reason to believe it does exist. The default position remains that it doesn't exist.

A person not knowing enough to form an opinion " I don't know if it exists or not" has no bearing on reality. This is merely an example of someone's ignorance.

Also, give up on the amateur psychiatrist schtick. You're no good at it. I'm here for the community of atheists. When I come across theists (or anyone) with dishonest intentions, they gain no respect from me. You are one such individual. You're not here to discuss, it's clear (from your posts) you're here to preach. Maybe you don't even realize it (ignorance) because you think it's only preaching of it's overtly preaching. But that's ignorance on your part.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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20-08-2015, 04:17 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 03:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You pulled this one out your arse didn't you.

No, I didn't. It's the entire point of the analogy. We have been over this multiple times, and I can only assume that your continued inability to understand this indicates that you are not reading my posts, or possibly that you have not read the actual passage in question. It might even be both.

If you disagree that the garage dragon is equivalent to no dragon, then you can answer the question.

What is the difference between the garage dragon and no dragon at all?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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20-08-2015, 04:20 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 04:17 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 03:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You pulled this one out your arse didn't you.

No, I didn't.
You didn't pull it out of your arse?

So where did you get the quote "There is no fire-breathing dragon in my garage, but there is a fire-breathing dragon in my garage" from?
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20-08-2015, 04:28 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 04:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So where did you get the quote "There is no fire-breathing dragon in my garage, but there is a fire-breathing dragon in my garage" from?

It isn't a quote. It is the logical equivalent of claiming that a garage dragon exists. Because the given definition of "garage dragon" is equivalent to "no dragon", they can be freely substituted without changing the truth value of the statement.

If you disagree, then you can answer the question - that is, you can show an actual difference between the garage dragon and no dragon at all.

So, once again, the question:

What is the difference between the garage dragon and no dragon at all?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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20-08-2015, 04:45 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 04:28 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  It isn't a quote. It is the logical equivalent of claiming that a garage dragon exists.
Oh, so you did pull it out your arse then, because Carl never made that claim, nor did he imply it.
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20-08-2015, 04:46 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 04:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Oh, so you did pull it out your arse then, because Carl never made that claim, nor did he imply it.

He absolutely did. That is the whole point of the analogy. It is, in fact, why he asks the question which you keep steadfastly, blatantly, and shamelessly refusing to answer.

If you're right, and there is a difference between the garage dragon and there not being a dragon there at all, then you can answer it.

So tell me. What is the difference between the garage dragon and no dragon at all?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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20-08-2015, 04:50 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2015 04:53 PM by Free.)
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 03:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 03:33 PM)Free Wrote:  "I do not accept the belief that the existence of God is impossible."

What do you think that means?

If you do not accept the belief that the existence of God is impossible, then you are therefore rejecting the belief that the existence of God is impossible. That is glaringly obvious.

Hence, if you do not accept the belief that the existence of God is impossible, then by necessity you default to the belief that teh existence of God is possible.

You can't have one without the other.

There is a sealed jar with marbles.
A person tells me that there are an even number of marbles in the jar.
I don't accept this as truth.
Does this then mean that I believe there are an odd number of marbles in the jar?

Or does this mean that I don't know whether there are an odd or even number of marbles in the jar?

You somehow think this is true analogy. You are mistaken.

You see, you already know both possible outcomes of an even or odd number of marbles. This knowledge gives you reason to doubt. You have the physical evidence in front of you, and you already know that there are only 2 possible outcomes.

The reality is that you know that there are an odd or an even number of marbles in the jar.

The reality is, YOU KNOW something.

This is not about what you don't know. You are basing your position from a position of knowledge, not from ignorance.

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20-08-2015, 05:11 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 04:46 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 04:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Oh, so you did pull it out your arse then, because Carl never made that claim, nor did he imply it.

He absolutely did. That is the whole point of the analogy. It is, in fact, why he asks the question which you keep steadfastly, blatantly, and shamelessly refusing to answer.
I've answered the question twice already. And told you I would answer it again (for the third time) if you resolved my question regarding the logical assessment of a generic claim.

Give and take yeah.
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