On the Existence of Garage Dragons
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20-08-2015, 05:16 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2015 05:23 PM by Stevil.)
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 04:50 PM)Free Wrote:  You somehow think this is true analogy. You are mistaken.

You see, you already know both possible outcomes of an even or odd number of marbles. This knowledge gives you reason to doubt. You have the physical evidence in front of you, and you already know that there are only 2 possible outcomes.

The reality is that you know that there are an odd or an even number of marbles in the jar.

The reality is, YOU KNOW something.

This is not about what you don't know. You are basing your position from a position of knowledge, not from ignorance.
There are two outcomes to the god question
Either it is possible for god to exist or it is impossible for god to exist. Two outcomes.

I don't know whether it is possible that god exists and I don't know if it is impossible for god to exist.
But I know there are two logical outcomes. It can't be both and it can't be neither. It has to be one or the other.
I don't know what the answer is.
If you ask me if I believe one or the other, my answer will be "No" I lack that belief.

There are two outcomes to the marble question
Either odd or even
I don't know if there is an odd number and I don't know if there is an even number.
But I know there are two logical outcomes. It can't be both and it can't be neither. It has to be one or the other.
I don't know what the answer is.
If you ask me if I believe one or the other, my answer will be "No" I lack that belief.
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20-08-2015, 05:17 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 05:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I've answered the question twice already.

No, you haven't. Once again, your unrelated tangents about what people believe about the garage dragon do not constitute an answer.

And no, I'm not going to play your pointless games. It is painfully obvious to everyone reading this thread that you are just trying to avoid admitting that there is no difference. I'm not interested in jumping through hoops in order to give you a little more time before you have to address the actual argument.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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20-08-2015, 05:22 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
.....
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20-08-2015, 05:25 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 05:17 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  I'm not interested in jumping through hoops in order to give you a little more time before you have to address the actual argument.
Are you on drugs of something. I don't need more time, because I've already answered your question.
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20-08-2015, 05:28 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 05:25 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Are you on drugs of something. I don't need more time, because I've already answered your question.

I reiterate: your irrelevant tangents do not constitute an answer to the question.

What is the difference between the garage dragon and no dragon at all?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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20-08-2015, 05:33 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2015 05:47 PM by Free.)
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 05:16 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 04:50 PM)Free Wrote:  You somehow think this is true analogy. You are mistaken.

You see, you already know both possible outcomes of an even or odd number of marbles. This knowledge gives you reason to doubt. You have the physical evidence in front of you, and you already know that there are only 2 possible outcomes.

The reality is that you know that there are an odd or an even number of marbles in the jar.

The reality is, YOU KNOW something.

This is not about what you don't know. You are basing your position from a position of knowledge, not from ignorance.
There are two outcomes to the god question
Either it is possible for god to exist or it is impossible for god to exist. Two outcomes.

I don't know whether it is possible that god exists and I don't know if it is impossible for god to exist.

Here you acknowledge as factual that there are two possible outcomes; either it is possible for god to exist, or it is impossible for god to exist.

This is a position of knowledge, and not a position of ignorance ie "I don't know." Therefore, you know "something."

And then here ..

Quote:But I know there are two logical outcomes. It can't be both and it can't be neither. It has to be one or the other. I don't know what the answer is.
If you ask me if I believe one or the other, my answer will be "No" I lack that belief.

... but what you DO know is that the answer MUST be one or the other.

What you are acknowledging here is the possibility that god exists, and the possibility that he doesn't exist. Why? Because you state as factual that there are only two possible outcomes.

If, as you so clearly state, there are only two possible outcomes, then you accept as possible that either one of them is true.

Hence, if you accept as possible that god could exist, then you are making a claim of a possibility, and evidence must be submitted to validate that claim.

This is all about what you accept as being possible; that God could exist. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether you know if he exists or not, nor does it matter in the slightest whether or not you have any beliefs on the subject.

This is all about the fact that you acknowledge that something is possible ie; God could possibly exist.

And my entire point is that if you are acknowledging that as a possibility, you are required to provide evidence to support it.

You cannot make the claim that you do not know if it is possible whether God exists or not when you so clearly state that there are only 2 possibilities. You are in complete and total contradiction.

Smartass

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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20-08-2015, 05:38 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
I am so confused by this thread.

I don't think I have the brain power to handle the heavy stuff. Undecided

But I think a garage dragon would be kinda cool.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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20-08-2015, 05:55 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 05:33 PM)Free Wrote:  ... but what you DO know is that the answer MUST be one or the other.
Logically yes.

(20-08-2015 05:33 PM)Free Wrote:  What you are acknowledging here is the possibility that god exists
No I'm not

(20-08-2015 05:33 PM)Free Wrote:  and the possibility that he doesn't exist.
No I'm not

(20-08-2015 05:33 PM)Free Wrote:  Why?
Because I don't know if it is possible or not.

(20-08-2015 05:33 PM)Free Wrote:  Because you state as factual that there are only two possible outcomes.
No, I have not stated whether either outcome is possible or not.
I have only stated that there are two logical outcomes.
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20-08-2015, 06:24 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 05:55 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 05:33 PM)Free Wrote:  ... but what you DO know is that the answer MUST be one or the other.
Logically yes.

(20-08-2015 05:33 PM)Free Wrote:  What you are acknowledging here is the possibility that god exists
No I'm not

(20-08-2015 05:33 PM)Free Wrote:  and the possibility that he doesn't exist.
No I'm not

(20-08-2015 05:33 PM)Free Wrote:  Why?
Because I don't know if it is possible or not.

(20-08-2015 05:33 PM)Free Wrote:  Because you state as factual that there are only two possible outcomes.
No, I have not stated whether either outcome is possible or not.
I have only stated that there are two logical outcomes.

If you don't know whether or not it is possible that God exists, then how can you make the claim as follows:

Stevil Wrote:There are two outcomes to the god question. Either it is possible for god to exist or it is impossible for god to exist. Two outcomes.

1. You are clearly acknowledging as factual the existence of two possibilities.
2. You are clearly acknowledging as factual two logical outcomes.

Since you are acknowledging the possible logical outcome that God could possibly exist, you are therefore, without any doubt whatsoever, acknowledging that possibility.

You cannot claim ignorance when you acknowledge something as being factual.

An agnostic only makes the claim that he doesn't know if God exists or not, and that is perfectly fine. But that is where the position ends, and it does not apply to possibilities.

As an agnostic, you simply don't know if God exists, but you must accept as possible that he either does exist, or he doesn't. You have no choice but to accept both of those possibilities, since there are no other choices.

You cannot say "I don't know if God's existence is possible" or "I don't know if God's existence is impossible" when you so freely acknowledge these possibilities, otherwise you are in logical contradiction.

You have accepted as possible the existence or non existence of God, and that's a fact.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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20-08-2015, 06:26 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 05:38 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I am so confused by this thread.

I don't think I have the brain power to handle the heavy stuff. Undecided

But I think a garage dragon would be kinda cool.

The garage dragon part of it, at least, is fairly straightforward. I'll be honest and admit that I don't know what Free and Stevil are discussing at the moment, but the garage dragon, at least, is pretty easy to understand.

If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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