On the Existence of Garage Dragons
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21-08-2015, 10:16 AM
On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 10:13 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 09:29 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And for the universe claims, all evidence right now points to proposition 2 as the only evidence we have is of this universe. Being able to conceive of universes with other parameters, doesn't mean they are plausible.

But (and here's the big but I'm how this differs from god claims), other universes are hypothesized to interact with our universe. Making them testable and detectable. So we can actually look for evidence to change our position.

God claims (when they specify themselves) can be tested too and none have ever panned out. So the claims are only logically rejected.

My familiarity with the "multiverse" concept is limited, but I don't think hypothetical "other universes" do interact with our universe. If they did, wouldn't they be part of our universe? The word "universe" means "everything there is," doesn't it? So anything we can observe or detect would necessarily be part of our universe. For the same reason, I'm not sure that the concept of multiple universes is coherent. If the universe is "everything there is," there can only be one of them.

Disclaimer: This is all highly speculative. I really don't know very much about the concept.

Do you remember the story a few months ago where waves detected in our universe were hypothesized to be from interactions with another universe? (Turned out to be instrumental error, but their are plans for detection equipment in satellites to look for cosmic interaction)

It also depends on the multiverse hypothesis, some of which say all the universes are connected through a sort of umbilical cord where one universe spawns another.

These are potentially testable hypotheses with no current supporting evidence. So the only logical conclusion remains a single universe.

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21-08-2015, 10:18 AM
On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 10:13 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 09:29 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And for the universe claims, all evidence right now points to proposition 2 as the only evidence we have is of this universe. Being able to conceive of universes with other parameters, doesn't mean they are plausible.

But (and here's the big but I'm how this differs from god claims), other universes are hypothesized to interact with our universe. Making them testable and detectable. So we can actually look for evidence to change our position.

God claims (when they specify themselves) can be tested too and none have ever panned out. So the claims are only logically rejected.

My familiarity with the "multiverse" concept is limited, but I don't think hypothetical "other universes" do interact with our universe. If they did, wouldn't they be part of our universe? The word "universe" means "everything there is," doesn't it? So anything we can observe or detect would necessarily be part of our universe. For the same reason, I'm not sure that the concept of multiple universes is coherent. If the universe is "everything there is," there can only be one of them.

Disclaimer: This is all highly speculative. I really don't know very much about the concept.

At a first glance, this article seems to hit on the idea of cosmic interaction between multiple universes.

Disclaimer: I haven't read this one other than quickly skimming it.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physi...ollisions/

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21-08-2015, 11:28 AM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 10:18 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 10:13 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  My familiarity with the "multiverse" concept is limited, but I don't think hypothetical "other universes" do interact with our universe. If they did, wouldn't they be part of our universe? The word "universe" means "everything there is," doesn't it? So anything we can observe or detect would necessarily be part of our universe. For the same reason, I'm not sure that the concept of multiple universes is coherent. If the universe is "everything there is," there can only be one of them.

Disclaimer: This is all highly speculative. I really don't know very much about the concept.

At a first glance, this article seems to hit on the idea of cosmic interaction between multiple universes.

Disclaimer: I haven't read this one other than quickly skimming it.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physi...ollisions/

Interesting stuff, although it sounds pretty speculative so far.
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21-08-2015, 11:54 AM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 11:28 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 10:18 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  At a first glance, this article seems to hit on the idea of cosmic interaction between multiple universes.

Disclaimer: I haven't read this one other than quickly skimming it.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physi...ollisions/

Interesting stuff, although it sounds pretty speculative so far.

Hence the reason why we don't accept the existence of other universes Wink

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21-08-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
But it would be foolish to assume that other universes are impossible. Unless of course you have conclusive evidence that they are impossible.
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21-08-2015, 12:46 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 12:15 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  But it would be foolish to assume that other universes are impossible. Unless of course you have conclusive evidence that they are impossible.

How do you prove impossibility? What evidence could you give to demonstrate nonexistence of anything? Consider

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21-08-2015, 01:05 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(20-08-2015 03:47 PM)Free Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 03:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nah, you're over-reaching.
If I am completely agnostic about the existence of 'X', I neither accept the belief that it is possible for it to exist nor accept the belief that it isn't.

That position does not represent the singular statement of:

"I do not accept the belief that the existence of God is impossible."

Only because the singular statement doesn't address the lack of belief that it's possible.

Your statement is incomplete.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-08-2015, 01:14 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 12:46 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 12:15 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  But it would be foolish to assume that other universes are impossible. Unless of course you have conclusive evidence that they are impossible.

How do you prove impossibility? What evidence could you give to demonstrate nonexistence of anything? Consider

That's a good point. Might be best to just wait for evidence....no need to rush to a conclusion prematurely.
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21-08-2015, 01:20 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 01:14 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 12:46 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How do you prove impossibility? What evidence could you give to demonstrate nonexistence of anything? Consider

That's a good point. Might be best to just wait for evidence....no need to rush to a conclusion prematurely.

It isn't a rush to conclusion to reject a claim when it presents no evidence for its position. Until such time as evidence of plausibility is presented, the claim isn't plausible. It isn't on me to prove or disprove the claim. The person making the claim (god exists, the dragon exists, big foot exists, etc) has to deliver or their claim is indistinguishable from fiction, and should be treated as such.

So, no evidence a god is plausible leads to the logical rejection of said claim based on a paucity of evidence that should be expected to exist.

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21-08-2015, 01:30 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 08:35 AM)Free Wrote:  My objection is this:

He's making a positive claim that two possibilities exist:

1. God exists.
2. God does not exist.

I am asking him to qualify one of those options as being possible, in particular, option 1.

In other words, what evidence can he supply that elevates option 1 from being a baseless assertion to being a hypothesis.

Why is Option 1 a possibility?
And why on earth don't you focus on the possibility of option 2.
Why don't you demand me to provide evidence in support of option 2? Option 2 is also a baseless assertion.

But the thing is Option 1 and Option 2 are all encompassing. It has to be one or the other. That's why we include the words "Either" "or". We are hedging our bets.

Basic logic lets us do this.

But if I give you the proposition
Either "I can juggle three balls for 1 continuous minute" OR "I can't juggle three balls for 1 continuous minute"

You have no knowledge of my juggling proficiency but you ought to be able to understand that my above proposition resolves to TRUE.

You don't know if it is possible for me to juggle three balls for 1 minute and you don't know if it is impossible for me to juggle three balls for 1 minutes. But if you have a grasp of basic rudimentary logic then you can understand that my proposition is valid and that it resolves to TRUE regardless of your not knowing which or the two options is true and regardless of you not knowing the possibility of either option. At least one of the options must be true, you just don't know which one.
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