On the Existence of Garage Dragons
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21-08-2015, 04:07 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 04:04 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 04:00 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Wow....you're reaching waaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there now.

Not at all.

The concept of god utilized in deism is one which does not interact with the universe in any way. It is a non-interactive entity. It is a garage dragon. By definition, it does not exist.

Sagan specifically talks about the god in your quotation being "relegated to remote times and places", which means that, while it might be hard to detect, it is possible to detect it. It is not a garage dragon.

Now you're saying that Sagan makes the claim that god is detectable? Huh
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21-08-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 04:04 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  What is the difference between the garage dragon and no dragon at all?

Even if that wasn't his intent, that is the result, because there is no coherent answer that shows any definable difference between the garage dragon and no dragon.

In the case of the dragon, the difference would lie in existence.[/quote]

That isn't an answer. That's the question. You can't answer the question "what's the difference between the garage dragon existing and not existing?" by saying "well, it exists if it exists". That's not an answer.

In order to be said to exist, there has to be some difference between a universe where the garage dragon is real and a universe where it is not. There isn't, and therefore, by definition, it does not exist.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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21-08-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 04:04 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 04:03 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Either way, Sagan never came to conclusion of no god. He even went further to describe the position as arrogant. I would go further and describe the position as idiotic.

Who cares if Sagan was an atheist? We don't have to use his definition of atheism and he isn't the arbiter of all things science.

His opinions on god, don't dictate mine.

Yeah, but this thread is specifically about Sagan.
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21-08-2015, 04:09 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 04:04 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 04:00 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Wow....you're reaching waaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there now.

Not at all.

The concept of god utilized in deism is one which does not interact with the universe in any way. It is a non-interactive entity. It is a garage dragon. By definition, it does not exist.

Sagan specifically talks about the god in your quotation being "relegated to remote times and places", which means that, while it might be hard to detect, it is possible to detect it. It is not a garage dragon.

There may be different definitions of deism, but in the one I'm familiar with, God did interact with the universe at one time -- he created it. He just doesn't interact with it anymore. Of course, this would make him undetectable at present. so I guess your point stands. The deist God is a garage dragon, unless we can find evidence of his having created the universe.
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21-08-2015, 04:10 PM
On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 04:08 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 04:04 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Who cares if Sagan was an atheist? We don't have to use his definition of atheism and he isn't the arbiter of all things science.

His opinions on god, don't dictate mine.

Yeah, but this thread is specifically about Sagan.

Specifically about garage dragons

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21-08-2015, 04:11 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 04:07 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Now you're saying that Sagan makes the claim that god is detectable? Huh

Yes. He does. In that very quote you posted, in fact.

He does not say that the god in question is necessarily real - that is, he doesn't claim that it will be detected - but he does explicitly say that you might find evidence of it waaaaay out in the depths of space if it is.

Thus, the god he is speaking of is not the deist god. It is not a garage dragon.

It still doesn't exist, but at least it hasn't defined itself out of existence.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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21-08-2015, 04:11 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 04:08 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 04:04 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Who cares if Sagan was an atheist? We don't have to use his definition of atheism and he isn't the arbiter of all things science.

His opinions on god, don't dictate mine.

Yeah, but this thread is specifically about Sagan.

No. It's about the implications of the garage dragon scenario that he authored.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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21-08-2015, 04:35 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 04:11 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 04:08 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Yeah, but this thread is specifically about Sagan.

No. It's about the implications of the garage dragon scenario that he authored.

Ok, let's suppose that the garage dragon does exist. Now what? Are you going to say that even though it exists, it doesn't exist?
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21-08-2015, 04:41 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 03:54 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 03:45 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  This is relevant... how, precisely?

Of all claims, couldn't we say that the god claim is the real world claim of the garage dragon?

No one actually claims garage dragons, but plenty of people claim god. Sagan is basically saying that anyone who claims to know that god doesn't exist, is full of shit. Same as those who claim to know he does exist.

It's relevant because it demonstrates his skepticism, and anti-cynicism. Sagan thought cynics were full of shit. Someone who claims god doesn't exist is a cynic. That's precisely how it's relevant.

Yes, but God is undetectable and therefore indistinguishable from non-existent.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-08-2015, 04:41 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(21-08-2015 04:35 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 04:11 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  No. It's about the implications of the garage dragon scenario that he authored.

Ok, let's suppose that the garage dragon does exist. Now what? Are you going to say that even though it exists, it doesn't exist?

I would say it's irrelevant whether or not it exists at that point. If it does not interact in any way with our reality, it doesn't matter to us whether or not it exists, and we can act as if it doesn't with no consequences.
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