On the Existence of Garage Dragons
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22-08-2015, 09:52 AM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(22-08-2015 12:38 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-08-2015 07:29 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  the garage dragon is defined as non-existent.
Only by Unbeliever. Carl never ever defined a "garage dragon" as non-existent.

So you still haven't actually read the passage in question, then. You really ought to do that. Trying to carry on a conversation about it while ignoring what is explicitly stated within it is a rather silly thing to do.

Quote:And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won’t work.

Now, what’s the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there’s no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists?

Bolding, once again, mine.

This really isn't hard.

(22-08-2015 01:45 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If you think that you have to restrict Carl's point (supported by the garage dragon analogy) to an invisible, non interactive entity, then it only applies to deist type gods.

It applies to any non-interactive entity. The fact that the only theistic argument that it applies to is the deistic one is irrelevant. I never claimed that the garage dragon applied to all gods.

(22-08-2015 01:45 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If you try to tell them that their god being non observable and not interactive means it doesn't exist. They would be quite right in showing you the logical fallicy in your thinking.

You keep saying this, but not once have you been able to actually demonstrate a fallacy.

It shouldn't be that hard. Here - I'm even willing to give you a list of them, so you can point out exactly which ones are present.

(22-08-2015 01:45 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If you try to tell them that there is no physical difference (or no difference from a human perspective) regarding whether their god exists or not, they would probably agree with you.

In which case, their god does not exist, because there is no difference between that god and no god at all.

(22-08-2015 01:45 AM)Stevil Wrote:  This interpretation is really a non starter.
It makes Carl's point meaningless.

You seem to have an awful lot to say about Sagan's point for someone who apparently hasn't read the passage.

(22-08-2015 04:14 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Does the fact that we haven't detected an alien spacecraft traveling towards earth guarantee that there isn't one?

Aliens are detectable.

They are not garage dragons.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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22-08-2015, 11:35 AM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(22-08-2015 09:52 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 12:38 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Only by Unbeliever. Carl never ever defined a "garage dragon" as non-existent.

So you still haven't actually read the passage in question, then. You really ought to do that. Trying to carry on a conversation about it while ignoring what is explicitly stated within it is a rather silly thing to do.

Quote:And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won’t work.

Now, what’s the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there’s no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists?

Bolding, once again, mine.

This really isn't hard.

(22-08-2015 01:45 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If you think that you have to restrict Carl's point (supported by the garage dragon analogy) to an invisible, non interactive entity, then it only applies to deist type gods.

It applies to any non-interactive entity. The fact that the only theistic argument that it applies to is the deistic one is irrelevant. I never claimed that the garage dragon applied to all gods.

(22-08-2015 01:45 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If you try to tell them that their god being non observable and not interactive means it doesn't exist. They would be quite right in showing you the logical fallicy in your thinking.

You keep saying this, but not once have you been able to actually demonstrate a fallacy.

It shouldn't be that hard. Here - I'm even willing to give you a list of them, so you can point out exactly which ones are present.

(22-08-2015 01:45 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If you try to tell them that there is no physical difference (or no difference from a human perspective) regarding whether their god exists or not, they would probably agree with you.

In which case, their god does not exist, because there is no difference between that god and no god at all.

(22-08-2015 01:45 AM)Stevil Wrote:  This interpretation is really a non starter.
It makes Carl's point meaningless.

You seem to have an awful lot to say about Sagan's point for someone who apparently hasn't read the passage.

(22-08-2015 04:14 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Does the fact that we haven't detected an alien spacecraft traveling towards earth guarantee that there isn't one?

Aliens are detectable.

They are not garage dragons.

For the purpose of this discussion, we'll assume that the aliens have technology that renders them undetectable.
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22-08-2015, 12:29 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(22-08-2015 11:35 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  For the purpose of this discussion, we'll assume that the aliens have technology that renders them undetectable.

In which case, yes, you're edging into garage dragon territory, and yes, depending on how far you want to take that, that does mean that they don't exist.

This really isn't complicated.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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22-08-2015, 12:50 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(22-08-2015 11:35 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 09:52 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  So you still haven't actually read the passage in question, then. You really ought to do that. Trying to carry on a conversation about it while ignoring what is explicitly stated within it is a rather silly thing to do.


Bolding, once again, mine.

This really isn't hard.


It applies to any non-interactive entity. The fact that the only theistic argument that it applies to is the deistic one is irrelevant. I never claimed that the garage dragon applied to all gods.


You keep saying this, but not once have you been able to actually demonstrate a fallacy.

It shouldn't be that hard. Here - I'm even willing to give you a list of them, so you can point out exactly which ones are present.


In which case, their god does not exist, because there is no difference between that god and no god at all.


You seem to have an awful lot to say about Sagan's point for someone who apparently hasn't read the passage.


Aliens are detectable.

They are not garage dragons.

For the purpose of this discussion, we'll assume that the aliens have technology that renders them undetectable.

No, we won't. There is nothing physical in the universe that is in principle undetectable.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-08-2015, 01:01 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(22-08-2015 12:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 11:35 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  For the purpose of this discussion, we'll assume that the aliens have technology that renders them undetectable.

No, we won't. There is nothing physical in the universe that is in principle undetectable.

If there are other universes, do we know for certain that they would be detectable?
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22-08-2015, 01:07 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(22-08-2015 01:01 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  If there are other universes, do we know for certain that they would be detectable?

According to multiverse theory, yes.

If they weren't, they wouldn't exist.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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22-08-2015, 01:09 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(22-08-2015 01:07 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 01:01 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  If there are other universes, do we know for certain that they would be detectable?

According to multiverse theory, yes.

If they weren't, they wouldn't exist.

Do we know that multiverse theory is true?
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22-08-2015, 01:17 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(22-08-2015 12:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 11:35 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  For the purpose of this discussion, we'll assume that the aliens have technology that renders them undetectable.

No, we won't. There is nothing physical in the universe that is in principle undetectable.

Indeed; a meaningfully coherent definition of existence necessitates observable interaction on the part of the entity existing.

We could, I guess, assume perfect stealth capacity, but it is not viable to propose aliens visiting Earth for the express and explicit purpose of not interacting with it. They could accomplish that much without leaving home.

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22-08-2015, 01:20 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(22-08-2015 01:09 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 01:07 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  According to multiverse theory, yes.

If they weren't, they wouldn't exist.

Do we know that multiverse theory is true?

Physically coherent theories are proposed to account for observation, usually prompted by those observations which are unexplained by existing theories. Existing multiverse theories do just that - they may be unverifiable, but never in principle unfalsifiable.

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22-08-2015, 01:23 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(22-08-2015 01:17 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 12:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, we won't. There is nothing physical in the universe that is in principle undetectable.

Indeed; a meaningfully coherent definition of existence necessitates observable interaction on the part of the entity existing.

We could, I guess, assume perfect stealth capacity, but it is not viable to propose aliens visiting Earth for the express and explicit purpose of not interacting with it. They could accomplish that much without leaving home.

I would argue that it is not viable to propose aliens at all without evidence. I just also think it's a mistake to rule out aliens without negating evidence.
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