On the Existence of Garage Dragons
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23-08-2015, 08:23 AM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(23-08-2015 08:21 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 07:52 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Exactly what is observable? How are you determining that what you are observing is a god?
It boils down to personal confirmation. These things that I observe are by definition not provable to others that do not have faith. I can explain it all day but you will only call it here it's a blast for me or nonsense. It can be things as seemingly as mundane as the formation of clouds heat lightning activity over it can be things as intermost as confirmation to self such as a physical feeling an overwhelming joy tears of joy and so forth and so on I can go into further detail but you I asked you first ask a particular question thank you

If that's the best evidence you have, wouldn't you have to admit that there is a decent chance you are being fooled by your observations? Do you really think that god is the ONLY possible explanation for those observations?
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23-08-2015, 08:23 AM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(23-08-2015 08:21 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 07:52 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Exactly what is observable? How are you determining that what you are observing is a god?
It boils down to personal confirmation. These things that I observe are by definition not provable to others that do not have faith.

But you cannot demonstrate this as being true to anyone else.

And because you cannot demonstrate any truth to this, anyone else can rightfully and correctly determine your claim as being false.

That's how life works, Pops.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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23-08-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(23-08-2015 08:23 AM)Free Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 08:21 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It boils down to personal confirmation. These things that I observe are by definition not provable to others that do not have faith.

But you cannot demonstrate this as being true to anyone else.

And because you cannot demonstrate any truth to this, anyone else can rightfully and correctly determine your claim as being false.

That's how life works, Pops.

Well, most reasonable people would only consider the claim to be unproven. We wouldn't conclude that it's false until there is evidence that proves it. We would simply reject the claim without forming a belief one way or the other until compelling evidence is presented.
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23-08-2015, 08:35 AM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(23-08-2015 08:26 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 08:23 AM)Free Wrote:  But you cannot demonstrate this as being true to anyone else.

And because you cannot demonstrate any truth to this, anyone else can rightfully and correctly determine your claim as being false.

That's how life works, Pops.

Well, most reasonable people would only consider the claim to be unproven. We wouldn't conclude that it's false until there is evidence that proves it. We would simply reject the claim without forming a belief one way or the other until compelling evidence is presented.

A claim is only considered "unproven" as opposed to "false" when some evidence has been provided, but the evidence is not enough to establish the truth of the claim.

If no evidence is provided at all, the claim can rightfully and honestly be determined as either being false, or a deliberate outright lie.

I mean seriously, what do you think lies are if not for false claims?

Think you can get your head wrapped around that incredibly simple concept, Matt?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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23-08-2015, 10:00 AM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(23-08-2015 08:21 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 07:52 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Exactly what is observable? How are you determining that what you are observing is a god?
It boils down to personal confirmation. These things that I observe are by definition not provable to others that do not have faith.

How can you tell what is real from what is a delusion? How can you demonstrate the truth of what you believe to anybody else when they don't have your experiences? How can you gainsay anybody who has faith in something that contradicts your beliefs when they are basing it on their experiences and faith?

You can believe anything you want to. If you are going to try to promote your beliefs then you need something better than personal experience and faith. Neither can be verified so there is no reason for anybody else to accept it. Given that you are on a forum for people who don't operate by faith all you are accomplishing is showing the lurkers how weak your position is.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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23-08-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
(23-08-2015 08:21 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It boils down to personal confirmation. These things that I observe are by definition not provable to others that do not have faith. I can explain it all day but you will only call it here it's a blast for me or nonsense. It can be things as seemingly as mundane as the formation of clouds heat lightning activity over it can be things as intermost as confirmation to self such as a physical feeling an overwhelming joy tears of joy and so forth and so on

So nothing about the entity is actually detectable unless you are already of a mindset that certain natural phenomena can be ascribed to it, indistinguishably from the natural behaviors of aforesaid phenomena.

That is the definition of an undetectable entity.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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23-08-2015, 11:08 AM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2015 11:26 AM by Free.)
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
Back to Stevil's claim:

He's making a positive claim that two possibilities exist:

Option 1. God exists.
Option 2. God does not exist.

His Claim:

Quote:But the thing is Option 1 and Option 2 are all encompassing. It has to be one or the other. That's why we include the words "Either" "or". We are hedging our bets.

He claims that either Option 1 or Option 2 must be the truth. However, in order for Option 1 to qualify as being capable of being true, it must be demonstrated as actually being capable. If it cannot be demonstrated as being capable of being true, then Option 1 is disqualified as being a possibility.

Therefore, since Option 1 is disqualified as being a possibility due to a complete and total lack of evidence, then it follows that his claim of "Two possibilities exist" is not valid.

I'm not sure why others here cannot follow this logic, but to me his claim that two possibilities exist is an invalid claim on all logical fronts.

If you apply this same reasoning to the Garage Dragon you will inevitably reach the same conclusion.

For Stevil- who claims to be agnostic and that he "doesn't know if the existence of God is possible"- to therefore positively claim that "two possibilities exist" is yet another glaring logical contradiction.

After all, if "he doesn't know ..."

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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23-08-2015, 11:54 AM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
Unbeliever,

Technically, my first and strongest confirmation was without absolute Faith
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23-08-2015, 11:59 AM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
Unfogged,

My aim is not for anyone's acceptance through my experience. It is to just open a doorway personally that will lead to your own experiences which in turn will eventually lead to your personal confirmation.
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23-08-2015, 12:03 PM
RE: On the Existence of Garage Dragons
Free,

The first isn't disqualified in that it is indeed proven to those who give it a real chance as opposed to keeping a doorway blocked off. Personal proof is the most undeniable.
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