One idea that bothers me...
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30-05-2011, 12:43 AM
 
One idea that bothers me...
Being an agnostic athiest (thanks to my other thread Smile ), i cant come up with any arguments to defend dying. Sure you can say that when you die, you become part of the universe but its hard to think that thats all that happens.

The best idea that i can come up with is that the person left behind experiences and knowledge that changed everybody around you and that nobody is dead as long as they are missed.

but imagine lossing somebody that is very close to you. Imagine if it was a person that you loved with every ounce of yourself, and then to have them die prematurely. how do you deal with that?

I know that if I lost my girlfriend of almost 3 years, i would lose it. I wouldn't know what to do :/
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30-05-2011, 02:48 AM
RE: One idea that bothers me...
I understand your angst and confusion over the issue of death, and yet someone, it might have been Carl Sagan but I'm not sure about that, mused that we didn't exist for approximately 14 billion years before we were born, and that didn't bother us in the least. I'll also have to say I was a bit amused by your idea of having to "defend" death, as if what we think about it has anything to do with the reality of it. I think I understand what you were getting at, but I thought your choice of words interesting.

Death is hard for everyone, and we each have to find a way to deal with it. When I first really admitted to myself that I did not believe in any form or type of "woo", that there was no evidence for reincarnation or past lives or heaven or hell or any other supernatural place, I also felt adrift. But I have lost people that I loved and cared deeply for, both when I believed and since admitting that I never really did, and believing did not in any way mitigate the pain of the death of someone I loved , that of a close friend or even the loss of a dear animal friend.

One of the sources of inspiration that I have found, for many things non-believing, freethinking or atheist is Greta Christina's blog, and, about this specific issue, her article "Comforting Thoughts About Death That Have Nothing To Do With God" is particularly helpful. But there are many sources for these kinds of inspiration, I'm sure on this very forum and on the myriad atheist spectrum websites and forums on the internet.

Your own thought that we live on in the fond memories of our friends, loved ones and relatives is a very good start on that, along with realizing that accepting death is one of the hardest tasks for most humans. Just keep asking questions and you'll find the answers that are right for you, even if they are not the answers you would like.

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." Groucho Marx
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30-05-2011, 03:35 AM
RE: One idea that bothers me...
(30-05-2011 02:48 AM)Dancingstan1 Wrote:  I understand your angst and confusion over the issue of death, and yet someone, it might have been Carl Sagan but I'm not sure about that, mused that we didn't exist for approximately 14 billion years before we were born, and that didn't bother us in the least.

That was Dawkins.
I think it might have been one of the times he mused about how astonishingly improbable it is that we (exactly) are here, considering the impossibly large number off different people our genome allows for, who are not here. But I might have this mixed up. Could be some other time and place entirely.

I want to rip off your superstitions and make passionate sense to you
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30-05-2011, 09:22 AM
RE: One idea that bothers me...
Yes it was Dawkins, here's the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOXMjCnKwb4


also everyone should watch this video Tongue

Science saved my soul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk
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30-05-2011, 10:24 AM (This post was last modified: 30-05-2011 10:33 AM by Dancingstan1.)
RE: One idea that bothers me...
(30-05-2011 03:35 AM)Norseman Wrote:  That was Dawkins.
I think it might have been one of the times he mused about how astonishingly improbable it is that we (exactly) are here, considering the impossibly large number off different people our genome allows for, who are not here. But I might have this mixed up. Could be some other time and place entirely.

Thanks for clearing that up. I knew I had heard it somewhere and it just made such perfect sense, but it was too late and I was too tired to look it up.

Also, fear or worry about death seems to be one of the things that separate us from the other animals, as it has never appeared to me that any of my dying animals have ever been much concerned about the fact of their dying. The pain perhaps, but not the dying.



(30-05-2011 09:22 AM)tjv323 Wrote:  Yes it was Dawkins, here's the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOXMjCnKwb4

also everyone should watch this video Tongue

Thanks for the link, and I agree absolutely!! Smile That is one of the most inspiring presentations I have ever heard, and a great answer to the theist notion that without an imaginary friend atheists have nothing to live for.

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." Groucho Marx
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30-05-2011, 10:45 AM
RE: One idea that bothers me...
Try this vid on the topic of death as well :




Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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30-05-2011, 05:06 PM
 
RE: One idea that bothers me...
(30-05-2011 02:48 AM)Dancingstan1 Wrote:  I understand your angst and confusion over the issue of death, and yet someone, it might have been Carl Sagan but I'm not sure about that, mused that we didn't exist for approximately 14 billion years before we were born, and that didn't bother us in the least. I'll also have to say I was a bit amused by your idea of having to "defend" death, as if what we think about it has anything to do with the reality of it. I think I understand what you were getting at, but I thought your choice of words interesting.

Death is hard for everyone, and we each have to find a way to deal with it. When I first really admitted to myself that I did not believe in any form or type of "woo", that there was no evidence for reincarnation or past lives or heaven or hell or any other supernatural place, I also felt adrift. But I have lost people that I loved and cared deeply for, both when I believed and since admitting that I never really did, and believing did not in any way mitigate the pain of the death of someone I loved , that of a close friend or even the loss of a dear animal friend.

One of the sources of inspiration that I have found, for many things non-believing, freethinking or atheist is Greta Christina's blog, and, about this specific issue, her article "Comforting Thoughts About Death That Have Nothing To Do With God" is particularly helpful. But there are many sources for these kinds of inspiration, I'm sure on this very forum and on the myriad atheist spectrum websites and forums on the internet.

Your own thought that we live on in the fond memories of our friends, loved ones and relatives is a very good start on that, along with realizing that accepting death is one of the hardest tasks for most humans. Just keep asking questions and you'll find the answers that are right for you, even if they are not the answers you would like.

This makes sense but the thought of losing a person is unbearable. I dont know. Its the scariest thing in the world to try and understand death. Sad
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30-05-2011, 07:50 PM
RE: One idea that bothers me...
(30-05-2011 12:43 AM)TheThinkingAgnostic Wrote:  but imagine lossing somebody that is very close to you. Imagine if it was a person that you loved with every ounce of yourself, and then to have them die prematurely. how do you deal with that?

Cry. That's all you can do.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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30-05-2011, 08:39 PM
RE: One idea that bothers me...
I can give you my answer, which in most cases is not going to be yours, but who knows. To me there is something great about the mystery of death, when you die it is no longer a mystery. You spend your whole life thinking about it in the back of your head, and you won't have to when you die. No matter what happens the answer is solved. I personally have always thought that this world had a lot of pain and suffering, and that dying is in no way a bad thing as it is a much simpler path than living. To grieve for someone, I miss them and take comfort in the fact that they are in one way or another at peace. No more questions, no more fears, there's a lot about being human that isn't happy. The reason I don't fear death is because I embrace it and will not mind when it comes. My only fear in dying is that others will be upset that I have. Fearing disastrously an inevitable fate is one of the biggest handicaps the religious have. Religion discusses death a lot, in general people don't put too much thought into the matter. The non-religious are often more capable of handling death when the time comes, simply because there are no rules to death for them, it just is. You know from early childhood that things die, accepting that is only difficult if you make it so.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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30-05-2011, 08:43 PM
 
RE: One idea that bothers me...
After you die, the following happens:

They bath you.
They Stuff you like like a dead moose
They put you in a box (air-tight if you go for the deluxe model)
They carry you around and people sing songs for you
You go for a ride in the Ghostbusters Wagon! **sings tune**
You get buried underground
You start to rot and decay
The gasses from your airtight coffin cannot escape and speed up decomposition
The forces inside the coffin and the pool of sick that was once you, eventually explode and make an almighty WHUMP!
Little girls in nearby houses and pimply faced teenagers roaming the graveyard at night think they heard a ghost
They go home crying to mommy and she tells them that Jesus will protect them.
You have converted yet another one!

Shame on you!!!! Tongue
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