One in a sextillion
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18-10-2011, 08:02 AM
RE: One in a sextillion
(17-10-2011 06:16 AM)free2011 Wrote:  
(16-10-2011 11:18 PM)17thknight Wrote:  
(07-10-2011 08:46 PM)free2011 Wrote:  1. God has to be assumed to NOT exist until evidence of his existence is found
2. The vastness of the Universe is a fact not an assumption


An unwillingness to make assumptions and derive logical conclusions is not intellectually honest nor is it scientific.

You're right. I assume there are pink unicorns because I read a book on pink unicorns when I was a kid. Do believe in my pink unicorns as well?

If you are having a debate on pink unicorns, and that debate requires an assumption of their existence, then you assume them to exist before engaging in the debate.

The theist who has posted here has told you why your argument does not hold water with him, and I have pointed out the exact same. In order to understand his views, WITH LOGIC, you must make an assumption of the existence of god and the veracity of the Bible. Upon doing those things you are able to make logical conclusions as to whether or not your argument counters his.

Yours doesn't. You seem to simply be mad about it and unwilling to reconcile your own emotions with logic.

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18-10-2011, 03:40 PM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2011 07:31 PM by mysticjbyrd.)
RE: One in a sextillion
(18-10-2011 08:02 AM)17thknight Wrote:  
(17-10-2011 06:16 AM)free2011 Wrote:  
(16-10-2011 11:18 PM)17thknight Wrote:  
(07-10-2011 08:46 PM)free2011 Wrote:  1. God has to be assumed to NOT exist until evidence of his existence is found
2. The vastness of the Universe is a fact not an assumption


An unwillingness to make assumptions and derive logical conclusions is not intellectually honest nor is it scientific.

You're right. I assume there are pink unicorns because I read a book on pink unicorns when I was a kid. Do believe in my pink unicorns as well?

If you are having a debate on pink unicorns, and that debate requires an assumption of their existence, then you assume them to exist before engaging in the debate.

The theist who has posted here has told you why your argument does not hold water with him, and I have pointed out the exact same. In order to understand his views, WITH LOGIC, you must make an assumption of the existence of god and the veracity of the Bible. Upon doing those things you are able to make logical conclusions as to whether or not your argument counters his.

Yours doesn't. You seem to simply be mad about it and unwilling to reconcile your own emotions with logic.

Christians believe in Yahweh because they read a book....I fail to see the difference as well.
Actually, most probably didnt read it, but heard about it from someone else who read PART of it, and then hey chose to ignore all but 10% of it.

You have to make a bad assumptions, and then pretend they are true in order to counter the theists arguments.....hmmm no, that is not logic.
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18-10-2011, 09:37 PM
RE: One in a sextillion
(18-10-2011 03:40 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  Christians believe in Yahweh because they read a book....I fail to see the difference as well.
Actually, most probably didnt read it, but heard about it from someone else who read PART of it, and then hey chose to ignore all but 10% of it.

You have to make a bad assumptions, and then pretend they are true in order to counter the theists arguments.....hmmm no, that is not logic.

I'm not sure you're really following what's going on here. In order for his argument to hold water (that lots of planets disprove the Bible) you must first take a theists view of the argument.

The Bible explicitly says Earth was made for man. It does not preclude the possibility of other planets, other life, etc. Therefore the argument that many planets = no god is severely flawed and proves/disproves nothing.

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18-10-2011, 10:54 PM
RE: One in a sextillion
Just want to say you atheists have got to have more imagination if you're gonna be conversing with theists.
Just pretend, it's only a conversation guys no secret atheist police are gonna come jumping out at you through the walls to arrest you for pretending god may be real just for the sake of conversation.
I'll bite actually theo. from what I gather you are asserting that this planet alone was the one made for man. You aren't claiming there aren't other planets, nor are you outright saying there can't be life other than us out there am I right?
If this is the case and I think this applies to you to 17th, what would it mean to you personally to find out that god had other children on other planets. That maybe us humans weren't so special after all? What if We found out that after god made us he had a better idea and made something he preferred and just sort of forgot about us? or maybe just, what would you think god was doing with all the rest of space if we can presume that it is as vast as science tells us?

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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19-10-2011, 12:26 AM
RE: One in a sextillion
(16-10-2011 11:18 PM)17thknight Wrote:  
(07-10-2011 08:46 PM)free2011 Wrote:  1. God has to be assumed to NOT exist until evidence of his existence is found
2. The vastness of the Universe is a fact not an assumption


An unwillingness to make assumptions and derive logical conclusions is not intellectually honest nor is it scientific.

Making assumptions based in nothing but old fairy tales is not intellectual or scientific. Come back when you have something besides an old book on your side. Thing is, even if you proved there were only 100k stars & planets in the universe, the earth was 7,000 years old and Evolution was impossible, you still haven't proven God/Creationism. To come to the "God exists" conclusion you must find hard evidence of his existence or rule out each and every possible alternate explanation (impossible - there are practically infinite explanations).

The only intellectually honest way to tackle a problem is to assume the negative on any supposition and then look for evidence to support the proposed theory, accepting it only when the evidence is sufficient, fits and is the best explanation for the known facts. Starting from a position of "god doesn't exist" is intellectually fair, assuming he does isn't. If we must assume all theories true until we disprove them, hello Zeus, Apollo and the Flying Pink Unicorns.

Better without God, and happier too.
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19-10-2011, 11:00 AM
RE: One in a sextillion
(19-10-2011 12:26 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  Making assumptions based in nothing but old fairy tales is not intellectual or scientific. Come back when you have something besides an old book on your side. Thing is, even if you proved there were only 100k stars & planets in the universe, the earth was 7,000 years old and Evolution was impossible, you still haven't proven God/Creationism. To come to the "God exists" conclusion you must find hard evidence of his existence or rule out each and every possible alternate explanation (impossible - there are practically infinite explanations).

The only intellectually honest way to tackle a problem is to assume the negative on any supposition and then look for evidence to support the proposed theory, accepting it only when the evidence is sufficient, fits and is the best explanation for the known facts. Starting from a position of "god doesn't exist" is intellectually fair, assuming he does isn't. If we must assume all theories true until we disprove them, hello Zeus, Apollo and the Flying Pink Unicorns.

It isn't "my side" and neither you, nor ANYONE else here has yet to refute my point:
1. The Bible explicitly says the Earth is for man
2. Therefore demonstrating the vastness of the universe neither proves nor disproves anything

You're all so eager to spit invective and pure, unadulterated hatred and bigotry towards theists that you are unwilling to make one simple logical conclusion and accept the fact that your "proof" neither proves nor disproves anything.

I've repeated myself a half dozen times, and you conveniently ignored the post I made right above yours that says the SAME thing.

(18-10-2011 10:54 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Just want to say you atheists have got to have more imagination if you're gonna be conversing with theists.
Just pretend, it's only a conversation guys no secret atheist police are gonna come jumping out at you through the walls to arrest you for pretending god may be real just for the sake of conversation.
I'll bite actually theo. from what I gather you are asserting that this planet alone was the one made for man. You aren't claiming there aren't other planets, nor are you outright saying there can't be life other than us out there am I right?
If this is the case and I think this applies to you to 17th, what would it mean to you personally to find out that god had other children on other planets. That maybe us humans weren't so special after all? What if We found out that after god made us he had a better idea and made something he preferred and just sort of forgot about us? or maybe just, what would you think god was doing with all the rest of space if we can presume that it is as vast as science tells us?
I don't believe in god, I'm an atheist, so it wouldn't mean anything to me.

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19-10-2011, 11:14 AM
RE: One in a sextillion

(18-10-2011 10:54 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Just want to say you atheists have got to have more imagination if you're gonna be conversing with theists.
Just pretend, it's only a conversation guys no secret atheist police are gonna come jumping out at you through the walls to arrest you for pretending god may be real just for the sake of conversation.
I'll bite actually theo. from what I gather you are asserting that this planet alone was the one made for man. You aren't claiming there aren't other planets, nor are you outright saying there can't be life other than us out there am I right?
If this is the case and I think this applies to you to 17th, what would it mean to you personally to find out that god had other children on other planets. That maybe us humans weren't so special after all? What if We found out that after god made us he had a better idea and made something he preferred and just sort of forgot about us? or maybe just, what would you think god was doing with all the rest of space if we can presume that it is as vast as science tells us?
I don't believe in god, I'm an atheist, so it wouldn't mean anything to me.

[/quote]

Sorry, I assumed you were a theist for some reason. No offense intended.
Still, let's say god is real, and that space is huge... what would he do with it all?

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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19-10-2011, 11:18 AM
RE: One in a sextillion
(19-10-2011 11:14 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Sorry, I assumed you were a theist for some reason. No offense intended.
Still, let's say god is real, and that space is huge... what would he do with it all?

According to everyone above you are an evil inhuman monster for making such an assumption but I'll bite Wink

All we can really do with such an assumption is view it form a human perspective, but personally I would treat it as one magnificent experiment. I'd create Magnetars and collide them together, watch as dust formed into suns and worlds, it would be glorious.
Then I'd notice some vermin had arisen on one of my glorious creations and I would smite the shit out of them.

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19-10-2011, 11:25 AM
RE: One in a sextillion
That's good like that. It's almost like a kid with a chemistry set, playing with the toy but unconcerned with the negative outcome. Like under the dome by stephen king only not as crappy (sorry steve I love you but that one was a turd). I actually tend to agree. If there were a god, he'd be using all that space to entertain himself because being the only omniscient thing in all of existence would be booooorrrrrriiiinnnnggg.

Also I am an evil clown.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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19-10-2011, 04:11 PM
RE: One in a sextillion
I got me one o' those numbers... Big Grin

Christian: In the beginning, God created...

Me: mumble, mumble; blaspheme...

Christian: Huh? The Bible says...

Me: mumble, mumble; idolatry. Lookit! Did the Bible begin in English? Don't matter how the book begins, what matters is how God begins; and how was that? "Let there be light." Speaking "light into existence" is creating like God... mumble, mumble; creationism... mumble, mumble, idolatry ... whereas God as light... mumble, mumble ... good scripture ... burning bush ... non-corporeal radiance ... cannot make idol out of light ... and then Jesus, light of the world, you know...

Christian: Yeah... I see...

Me: Priest just want you follow scripture... Bible Study... mumble, mumble ... ain't understanding no "god beyond understanding" using the book like idolatry ... mumble, mumble ... preach crap like hell to keep you scared and in your seat ... mumble, mumble ... Bible ... outside in the light of god. Did i tell ya. god's still got em stumped with that light business...

Christian: Really?

Me: God is all with the being "beyond understanding." Lemme tell ya about wave-particle duality... mumble, mumble (later) mumble, mumble ... decoherence ... relativity ... uncertainty ... science reveals all of this, and is still puzzling creation. Bible study going on alla this time just producing more puzzlement. God ain't inna book - god through the book - otherwise it's just idolatry. Idolatry keep a fella in the dark, just where the priests want you to stay. God way beyond their simple understanding, huh? How god do it?

Christian: I - uh - I see the light...

Me: Yeah, buddy! Speaking of seeing and god beyond understanding, did you know that visible light only comprises one octillionth of the electromagnetic spectrum?

Cool

Word ain't ever gonna win a debate against Number.

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