One question that completely refutes atheism
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22-07-2014, 12:00 PM
RE: One question that completely refutes atheism
(22-07-2014 11:26 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  Apparently you missed the part where it proves that atheism is just as circular. "Logic exists, therefore logic exists"?
One can't miss what isn't there. But now you also missed the part where that isn't atheism despite that I just explained that to you. Not that I should have needed to... you've been on this site how long...? Blink

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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22-07-2014, 12:02 PM
RE: One question that completely refutes atheism
(22-07-2014 11:10 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  I was a fundimentalist atheist untill I heard Sye Ten, now I see atheism as dumb.

WTF is a fundimentalist (sic) atheist? Is that similar to a vegan atheist, or is it more closely-aligned with a video game atheist? Me, I'm a guitar atheist, because you can't disprove music, therefore Hendrix.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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22-07-2014, 12:46 PM
RE: One question that completely refutes atheism
(22-07-2014 12:02 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(22-07-2014 11:10 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  I was a fundimentalist atheist untill I heard Sye Ten, now I see atheism as dumb.

WTF is a fundimentalist (sic) atheist? Is that similar to a vegan atheist, or is it more closely-aligned with a video game atheist? Me, I'm a guitar atheist, because you can't disprove music, therefore Hendrix.

Fundie. Mental. He got 2 out of 3 right.

Doc
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22-07-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: One question that completely refutes atheism
(22-07-2014 11:45 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(22-07-2014 11:10 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  How do you dismiss presuppositional apologetics so easily?

Unless and until you can define "God" coherently and meaningfully these are utterly empty propositions.

That was what I surmised from Sye's assertions, watching him debate Matt Dillahunty he doesn't leave you with anything close to an explanation of why it would be Yahweh he's talking about or how he knows Yahweh has revealed anything to him. He simply asserts that he has absolute knowledge because god revealed it to him.

He might as well have stated invisible leprechauns revealed it to him, it makes as much sense and has as much evidence to back it up.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-07-2014, 01:01 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2014 01:32 PM by Rumraket.)
RE: One question that completely refutes atheism
(22-07-2014 10:22 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  Atheism is the rejection of religious claims on the grounds of logic
No it isn't. Atheism is merely the absense of belief in gods. There are no grounds for atheism included in the concept itself, they differ from person to person.

Yes, most atheists in my experience do use logic as part of their rejection of belief, but that is not an intrinsic property.

(22-07-2014 10:22 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  which you have not demonstrated is able to exist without God.
I must have missed the place where you demosntrate that god is the author of logic.

Apparently you don't even know what logic is. You seem to think logic is some kind of entity in itself that floats around somewhere, having been created by god and then sits there keeping everything in check. That's obviously nonsense.

Quick intro: Logic was made up by human beings to serve two purposes, descriptive and prescriptive.

One, it serves as a description of existence, of how the world works. A model or representation of how all things that exist behaves. To the best of our ability, the world appears to be logically constistent. We could say it is a property of existence, or the nature of that which exists.

Because of this, we get to the prescriptive part. It is used as a precription for humans to guide us in how to reason properly, in a way that matches the way the world works.

We don't have to "account" for logic to use logic, and theists can no more account for the apparent logical consistency of existence than atheists can. The theist might be tempted to ask why logic "exists"(whatever the hell this means, look above), or perhaps a better question would be "why is the world logically constitent"? This is where the atheist will either be forced to respond that s/he doesn't know, or that it just is.

A-hah! - the theist responds - "you can't account for it! But I can, because logic is consistent with god's nature, or god "made logic"" or something to that effect.
But how has the theist really "accounted" for logic here? He's simply made up an answer by adding another unanswered layer on top. Instead we now can ask - why is that god's nature instead of some other property? Why does god have the power or capability to "create" logic? What use is the theist's made-up answer here then, really? It's just a meaningless gap-filler stuck in there that doesn't even properly plug the hole. We can still keep asking about properties that needs to be accounted for.

Note, I shamelessly borrowed most of the points in my post from an excellent youtube video by theoreticalbullshit (aka Scott Clifton).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8dePAhDMh4

"When inventing a god, the most important thing is to claim it is invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise, people will become skeptical when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing." - Anonymous
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22-07-2014, 01:04 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2014 01:09 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: One question that completely refutes atheism
Diddo,

You wrote: Apparently you missed the part where it proves that atheism is just as circular. "Logic exists, therefore logic exists"?

Logic does not need to be proved or argued for because the concepts "proof" and "argument" presuppose the validity of logic just as your question in the OP presupposes absolute truths. Logic is a tool of cognition. It rests on the axioms I mentioned earlier and on the primacy of existence principle. These principles do not need to be proved they are self evident. They can not be defined in terms of more fundamental concepts, they can only be defined ostensively. Logic is simply non contradictory identification of the facts of reality.

So there is no argument for the validity of logic hence there is no circularity. If you want to invalidate logic as a cognitive tool then you will need to refute the axioms existence, consciousness, identity and the primacy of existence.

Go ahead and try without using any of the fore mentioned axioms or logic.

Incidentally not only does presuppositionalism beg the question it is guilty of the fallacy of the stolen concept. It attempts to prove a claim that negates the axioms and the primacy of existence while counting on and using those same principles which is why it is self refuting.

Logic however does not suffer from those problems being a corollary of axioms which are not inferred from antecedent concepts. There are no concepts more fundamental than existence, identity, and consciousness.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-07-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: One question that completely refutes atheism
(22-07-2014 10:51 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(22-07-2014 10:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Atheism is a lack of belief in gods. That's it and it's no lie. If you've been "hearing" anything else, then you haven't been paying attention very well.

What is your basis for lack of a belief in God?

Probably the same as your basis for a lack in belief of Vishnu, Thor, Zeus and invisible pink unicorns.

What is your basis for lack of belief in those things?
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22-07-2014, 01:45 PM
RE: One question that completely refutes atheism
diddo, I believe that venus is hollow and full of little fat blue men who ride unicorns and sprinkle fairy dust into their Great Sky Cauldron every hour on the hour, and that controls the weather on earth. Do you believe in the great blue men as well? If not, why not? There is as much proof of them as there is for your made up god.....zero.

If you can't disprove the great blue men of venus, that means they MUST exist!

See the fallacy in this argument? I would draw a picture but I can't find my crayons and paint is a pain to upload and post here.

Consider

Drooling

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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22-07-2014, 01:48 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2014 04:16 PM by WindyCityJazz.)
RE: One question that completely refutes atheism
This thread has gone on for way too long. We can keep calling out diddo on his bullshit a million times, and all he'll do is keep repeating his same bullshit claims over and over again, and sticking his fingers in his ears saying "La la la! I can't hear you!" A lot of members have taken the time to write intelligent, detailed responses, and it's been nothing but a waste of time. Seriously, don't even bother wasting your time anymore. He's going to remain in willful ignorance because he refuses to believe that anything other than what he was indoctrinated to believe in has any merit. He can't even disprove the existence of Allah, Zeus, Thor, Ra, or any other of the countless gods that humans either believe in, or have believed in, throughout history. By his own defensive bullshit stance that he takes right there his argument is invalid.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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22-07-2014, 02:03 PM
RE: One question that completely refutes atheism
(22-07-2014 01:48 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  We can keep calling out diddo on his bullshit a million times, and all he'll do is keep repeating his same bullshit claims over and over again, and sticking his fingers in his ears saying "La la la! I can't hear you!" A lot of members have taken the time to write intelligent, detailed responses, and it's been nothing but a waste of time.

I can see you're a man who knows his presuppositional apologetics.

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