Open Challenge: Reality may not exist without thoughts
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27-03-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality cannot exist without thoughts
(27-03-2016 05:16 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Do you believe WWII did not happen??? Do you doubt it? There is an abundance of evidence. Including my dad who fought the Japanese in the Pacific.
Obviously your father never existed.
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27-03-2016, 02:30 PM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality cannot exist without thoughts
(27-03-2016 01:48 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(27-03-2016 05:16 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Do you believe WWII did not happen??? Do you doubt it? There is an abundance of evidence. Including my dad who fought the Japanese in the Pacific.
Obviously your father never existed.

Well neither does Banjo Rolleyes

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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27-03-2016, 02:36 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2016 02:56 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Open Challenge: Reality cannot exist without thoughts
(27-03-2016 10:24 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(27-03-2016 08:06 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  The brain before the test is not part of the test.
It falls outside of the components of the test.

Your claim is that "Reality cannot exist without thoughts" and you admit that thoughts are not possible without a brain. That makes thought entirely dependent on the physical reality that produces them. Your "test" is pointless nonsense and you are apparently too ignorant or too dense to see that. Maybe both.
When did I say that & how is it relevant to the scientific method?

We are attempting to prove if thought comes before everything else when examining reality.

In the scientific method the conclusion is the last step to determine truth of a claim.
Conclusions should have the ability to be peer reviewed.
To get to the conclusion you have to examine the evidence
To examine the evidence you should be able to repeat the test and predict the results
To repeat the test you must be able perform the test
To perform the test you must have a hypothesis
To have a hypothesis you must have an observation.

Observation:
I observed that things do not exist until I am able to perceive them
Eg. I have a cup in front of me. I observe if I completely blank out the thought of that cup it no longer exists to me until I start back to perceive.

Hypothesis:
I must perceive that cup first before I can prove that it exists.

Experiment:
Don't make any attempt to perceive the cup and the cup ceases to exist until you begin to perceive.

Conclusion:
Perceptive reality can only exist with perception. Outside of that nothing can exist without perception.
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27-03-2016, 03:27 PM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality cannot exist without thoughts
This is just a conflated version of,

"If a tree falls in a remote forest, and no one is around to hear it, did it make a sound?"

I am quite certain that when YOU die, and if all conscious thought ceases, the universe will continue to daddle away. There is nothing to suggest it doesn't.

Ignorance is not to be ignored.

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27-03-2016, 03:36 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2016 04:10 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Open Challenge: Reality cannot exist without thoughts
(27-03-2016 03:27 PM)Loom Wrote:  This is just a conflated version of,

"If a tree falls in a remote forest, and no one is around to hear it, did it make a sound?"

I am quite certain that when YOU die, and if all conscious thought ceases, the universe will continue to daddle away. There is nothingYesShocking to suggest it doesn't.
You mean "if" I die Mr Know it all.
Other than that I see no reason to object to your claim, but I have no way of testing it so why should I believe it?

I do not live outside of my own perception, so it's only honest to state the obvious, regardless of how stupid I think it might sound to someone else.

Everything outside of my own perception is a null hypothesis as far as proof is concerned.

I can and have tested my perception and everything I perceive exists and the things I cannot perceive do not exist until I perceive it.

I'm being honest with myself. I'm not making any guesses here.
It's quite possible I die and you still live. Never will I deny this.

Just because you believe something doesn't mean it's true. This applies to me to.
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27-03-2016, 03:48 PM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality cannot exist without thoughts
Reality cannot exist without thoughts therefore there could be no reality with the thoughts if Santa Claus to bring reality into being? HUH? Or are you pretending something different this time?
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27-03-2016, 04:06 PM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality cannot exist without thoughts
(27-03-2016 03:48 PM)DerFish Wrote:  Reality cannot exist without thoughts therefore there could be no reality with the thoughts if Santa Claus to bring reality into being? HUH? Or are you pretending something different this time?

Listen again. It's not an assertion, it is a necessary truth.
I am not speaking about anyone else here or what they think they perceive.
This is exactly what I perceive.
If I don't perceive something exists how can I make the claim that it exists without it being a guess?

You object to honesty? You would prefer I lie?
Do you think I am telling you that you don't exist? Because that is not what i am telling you.

If i get cut and i tell you i don't feel any pain why would anyone object to that?

I refuse to make the claim that I know something exists if i am unable to perceive it.

You should tie me to a pyre and threaten me to say the Pyramids of Egypt exist regardless of wether or not I perceive it and then light me up, because I'm never going to admit something I do not know for certain.
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27-03-2016, 05:17 PM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality cannot exist without thoughts
Is this a new speed record for landing in the Vipers Pit? Nicely done Shane.

Here's a simple experiment that you can do. Find a good solid brick wall and, using a 30 meter run-up, charge head first at it. Now while you're unconscious, either reality exists or it does not. If it does not then you don't exist and I'm a little hazy on who you think will be regaining consciousness with a patten of bricks stamped into his skull.

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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27-03-2016, 05:20 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2016 05:27 PM by Loom.)
RE: Open Challenge: Reality cannot exist without thoughts
I'm not certain how you can live comfortably then.

I'm comfortable with the belief that I exist as a form of life, a human being, amongst other human beings (including you) that I have reason enough to believe can, for the most part, perceive things in a similar manner that I do, all of us living on a planet called Earth orbiting a star found within a cluster, within a galaxy.

Is this reality I find myself in an absolute certainty? Perhaps no, if I think about it too much. I could be a simulation, or a brain in a vat.

Yet, here I am, in this particular reality. And so I live in it as I find myself. Trying not to live as part of it doesn't change anything. I have no choice but to live in this reality until the (likely) ceasation of my life. After which, who know's what'll happen, but it'll probably be nothing. I'm not that special.

I am but a miniscule part of this reality, not reality itself. Which means, as far as I can tell, reality will continue without my existence. When I sleep, or am unconscious, reality is still there.

Possibility does not equate probability.

But the real question is, why am I wasting my time on this? There is no answer that will satisfy you.

Ignorance is not to be ignored.

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27-03-2016, 05:26 PM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2016 05:34 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Open Challenge: Reality cannot exist without thoughts
(27-03-2016 05:17 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Is this a new speed record for landing in the Vipers Pit? Nicely done Shane.

Here's a simple experiment that you can do. Find a good solid brick wall and, using a 30 meter run-up, charge head first at it. Now while you're unconscious, either reality exists or it does not. If it does not then you don't exist and I'm a little hazy on who you think will be regaining consciousness with a patten of bricks stamped into his skull.
You honestly expect someone in an unconcsious state would be able to recognize that reality exists? If ever I were to continue perceiving reality after such an event it means reality continued to exist after I was able to perceive it.
This test is flawed because it does not prove that reality exists outside of my perception. At least not to me anyway. Why should I care about a test that there is no possible situation where I can perform the test myself?
The only way to prove anything sits outside of perception is to remove perception from reality.
I have no way of doing this. It cannot be tested and is therefore a null hypothesis.
I can however test if reality exists within our perception of it, therefore it is more believable than the null hypothesis. However not necessary true.

If all the evidence suggests all of perceiveable reality is dependent on perception why have we opted to believe the null hypothesis that reality exists outside of perception?

No where in my statement do I suggest that we consciously create reality, but I realize many of you are tempted to think I somehow have this belief.
I am stating the obvious, not what I like.
Do not mistake the words "might not exist" for "does not exist". I have never made the claim reality does not exist outside of perception.
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