Open Challenge: Reality may not exist without thoughts
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28-03-2016, 03:01 AM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality may not exist without thoughts
(28-03-2016 02:53 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 02:27 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  2. I don't want to see hallucinations outside my head.

Facepalm No Huh

hallucination
Pronunciation: /həˌluːsɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/
NOUN

An experience involving the apparent perception of something not present:
he continued to suffer from horrific hallucinations

Oxford English dictionary.
I don't see wherin lies your objection.
Key words "I don't want to"
Understand the logic.
If it happens, it happens. I do not look forward to it nor do I desire it.
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28-03-2016, 03:03 AM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality may not exist without thoughts
Quote:I don't want to see hallucinations outside my head.

What about the ones inside? I am rather serious, you should distance yourself -at least a bit- from your silly thought processes and evaluate them.
On the other hand, you need your thought processes to investigate......well, thats where you could accept help from the outside, but we all know you wont.
What a pity, but thats your problem. Work on it!
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28-03-2016, 03:11 AM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2016 10:29 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Open Challenge: Reality may not exist without thoughts
(28-03-2016 02:47 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(27-03-2016 09:36 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I'm simply applying the same rules to both realities. Anything else is special pleading. This other reality is not observed, thus it is gone.


And I had not dismissed it until now. Applying your rules to both realities negates the one that you have proposed. It is vanished as if it had never been. Better that you had not invoked it.


And now you are invoking one that we don't.


This would appear to be axiomatic. At least for those of us who live in it.


And I think it would be foolish of us to waste too much thought on what is logically foolish.

But since you persist here's a simple experiment that should satisfy you curiosity:

In a sealed room where nobody else can observe, place a circular saw and a timed device for feeding your hand through it. Turn on the saw, set the timer for 20 minutes, take a strong sedative that will render you unconscious in no less than five minutes and allow you to regain consciousness in an hour or two, apply a turnicate and place your hand in the device. Since you are unconscious when the timer on the device feeds your hand through the saw your perception will have no effect on reality.

Kindly let me know how many hands you are typing your reply with.
Why are you applying rules that apply to a physical reality to a reality that is said to not be bound by any of the rules such as that? Such a reality would not be bound by time. If you claim it can be destroyed it would have no meaning except as a moment that can be achieved by merely thinking about it. Simultaneously, before & after does not exist. It just is. Every moment is just as equal as another moment and all moments are possible while infinite due to the possibility we can add more to that which already exists. Thought is the only thing necessary for such a reality to exist. Adding anything outside of thought to such a reality will collapse the reality.
Thus it is a necessary function that everything that will ever exist in our world and any world can only exist within the realm of thought without creating the paradox's of logic.
I have found this way of viewing what some would call absolute reality is a very easy way to explain how the universe was created. In a universe not bound by time the singularity of the big bang could be an imagined moment & everything else that was added to it after that was a logical necessity. Imagination therefore supercedes our physical reality.
This reality need not be bound by the laws of nature as we have always assumed but rather because this is how it was imagined it is only obvious that once created the laws of nature are bound to follow the path thought took to create this reality. If thought had took a path with e = mc3 then anything within the new reality will be bound by the laws of e = mc3 & there would be no way to escape this law unless you are no longer a part of the new reality.


One problem there ace. Do you have any evidence of thoughts existing outside of reality? Of thoughts creating a reality? How much control do you have over your own thoughts? Can you think of your thoughts before you think them, or do they simply emerge from your consciousness?

Because all the evidence available to us indicated that our thoughts are bound to this reality, within a universe that existed long before us and that we have every reason to believe will continue long after we die and cease thinking. Your mental masturbation is no substitute for evidence.

Also, your imagination and your thoughts cannot supersede reality, because they are apparently bound to it. Sure, you can imagine just about anything. But if someone puts a loaded gun to your head and pulls the trigger, just imagining that the gun fires unicorn farts instead of bullets won't stop if from spattering your grey matter across the wall and rather abruptly ending your imagination session. Unless you have evidence that can support the existence of imaginations and thoughts independent of brains? Good luck with substance dualism.

Man, this is fucking bush league.

[Image: 512TZocJCNL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg]

Seriously, given your level of comprehension, this book should keep you occupied for a few months at least.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
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28-03-2016, 03:13 AM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2016 03:17 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Open Challenge: Reality may not exist without thoughts
(28-03-2016 02:27 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  1. I don't want to seperate anything.

[...]

Any other misconceptions you would like me to clear up?

Yes. You need to explain why you said you want to separate perceptions from reality earlier in this thread if you're now saying you don't want to separate anything.

What sort of troll doesn't even bother keep track of the bullshit he spews?

That's right -- you. You don't even make a good troll.

Dumbfuck.

(28-03-2016 02:27 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  2. I don't want to see hallucinations outside my head.

Any other misconceptions you would like me to clear up?

I'd suggest remedial English for you, but it would almost certainly be a matter of casting pearls before swine.
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28-03-2016, 03:15 AM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality may not exist without thoughts
(28-03-2016 03:01 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 02:53 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Facepalm No Huh

hallucination
Pronunciation: /həˌluːsɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/
NOUN

An experience involving the apparent perception of something not present:
he continued to suffer from horrific hallucinations

Oxford English dictionary.
I don't see wherin lies your objection.
Key words "I don't want to"
Understand the logic.
If it happens, it happens. I do not look forward to it nor do I desire it.

Hallucinations are, by definition, a mistaken perception. Therefore they are ALL in your head, dumbass. You don't need to worry about them outside your head, because that makes no fucking sense. That's why you get the faceplam.

[Image: Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg]

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28-03-2016, 03:20 AM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2016 03:47 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Open Challenge: Reality may not exist without thoughts
(28-03-2016 03:13 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 02:27 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  While we are still on the topic of being honest with oneself I have to make a few adjustments to your statements:
1. I don't want to seperate anything.
2. I don't want to see hallucinations outside my head.

Any other misconceptions you would like me to clear up?

Yes. You need to explain why you said you want to separate perceptions from reality earlier in this thread if you're now saying you don't want to separate anything.

What sort of troll doesn't even bother keep track of the bullshit he spews?

That's right -- you. You don't even make a good troll.

Dumbfuck.
1. Let's try to keep up with being honest shall we?
Can you not see the "if you want to"
It is not the same as "I want to"
It is a statement representative of those that "may want to"
It is not an association of me and my beliefs.

Is this something you do quite often? You hear someone say "it's possible that" and automatically think they say "it is that"
It's like almost every reply I give you is based on me correcting you continuous misinterpretation of "is" for "can be"

2. We are discussing the possibility that this reality is subject to a reality that exists outside of my perception. This means "everything" we perceive (as in everything) can be subject to a reality that exists outside perception. Hallucinations and the definition of hallucinations are not excluded from the word "everything"
You are still stuck in a conversation about this reality only, when we have already moved on to a discussion about a truer reality which supercedes our own.
If you can't keep up with deep thought try to stay out of the conversation.

3. You're starting to sound like an eavesdropper constantly objecting to the parts he didn't hear and ending every misinterpreted objection with "dumbfuck" isn't going to fix the part where you missed half the conversation.
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28-03-2016, 03:39 AM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality may not exist without thoughts
(28-03-2016 03:15 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 03:01 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I don't see wherin lies your objection.
Key words "I don't want to"
Understand the logic.
If it happens, it happens. I do not look forward to it nor do I desire it.

Hallucinations are, by definition, a mistaken perception. Therefore they are ALL in your head, dumbass. You don't need to worry about them outside your head, because that makes no fucking sense. That's why you get the faceplam.

[Image: Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg]
What does that have to do with a reality that exists outside of my head? We are discussing the possibility that this reality is subject to a reality that exists outside of my perception. This means "everything" we perceive (as in everything) can be subject to a reality that exists outside perception. Hallucinations and the definition of hallucinations are not excluded from the word "everything"
(27-03-2016 10:46 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  If you want to separate perception from reality, take a bunch of LSD. While you're under the influence, reality can and perhaps may well kill you anyway. And on the other hand, the hallucinations you see will have no basis in reality outside your head at all.
"if you want... Take... And.. Hallucinations you see... No basis... Outside your head"
He asked a question and made an assumption.
He asked "if I want"
He assumed "I desire to see things outside my head"

I am basically stating "no I don't want... Because I don't "desire to see things outside my head"


It's a simple statement which simply means it is not my desire to see the reality which I think "can exist" (not "does exist") outside my head.
You should facepalm yourself for still being stuck in a conversation about this reality only, when we have already moved on to a discussion about a truer reality which supercedes our own.
If you can't keep up with deep thought try to stay out of the conversation. Your starting to sound like an eavesdropper constantly objecting to the parts he didn't hear.
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28-03-2016, 03:58 AM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality may not exist without thoughts
(28-03-2016 03:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 03:15 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Hallucinations are, by definition, a mistaken perception. Therefore they are ALL in your head, dumbass. You don't need to worry about them outside your head, because that makes no fucking sense. That's why you get the faceplam.

[Image: Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg]
What does that have to do with a reality that exists outside of my head?


Reality does exist outside of your head, and when there is a disconnect from what reality is and what you perceive it to be, that is by definition a hallucination.

So another faceplam for you.


(28-03-2016 03:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  We are discussing the possibility that this reality is subject to a reality that exists outside of my perception.


Newsflash: They are one and the same.

The vast majority of reality exists outside of your infinitesimal perception, and even that only applies to what we know (and can show with evidence) to be our current reality. There may very well be other planes of existence, or a multiverse, or some other layer to reality that we are not currently privy to. If our universe is but one in a multiverse, and we discovered evidence to support that fact, then the scope of our reality has simply expanded to encompass more. But until we have evidence to support their existence, then acting they they are there is premature, but likewise our inability to currently perceive them doesn't mean they don't exist. Radiation and quantum particles existed long before we had the means to measure, experiment, and understand them. Likewise your inability to perceive radiation (or carbon monoxide, and any number of other imperceptible lethal substances) wouldn't save you from exposure to lethal doses of it.



(28-03-2016 03:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This means "everything" we perceive (as in everything) can be subject to a reality that exists outside perception. Hallucinations and the definition of hallucinations are not excluded from the word "everything"

'Hallucination' is a word we use to describe a specific phenomenon, and as a word, it is part of human language; itself a construct of human convenience. Words have meanings, and they can be created or changed, no alternate reality intervention required. So your objection is pointless, because our language is just as subject to our reality as we are. So could you kindly move past pedantic word games?

Also, be sure not to conflate possibility with probability.

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28-03-2016, 04:01 AM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality may not exist without thoughts
(28-03-2016 03:11 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 02:47 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Why are you applying rules that apply to a physical reality to a reality that is said to not be bound by any of the rules such as that? Such a reality would not be bound by time. If you claim it can be destroyed it would have no meaning except as a moment that can be achieved by merely thinking about it. Simultaneously, before & after does not exist. It just is. Every moment is just as equal as another moment and all moments are possible while infinite due to the possibility we can add more to that which already exists. Thought is the only thing necessary for such a reality to exist. Adding anything outside of thought to such a reality will collapse the reality.
Thus it is a necessary function that everything that will ever exist in our world and any world can only exist within the realm of thought without creating the paradox's of logic.
I have found this way of viewing what some would call absolute reality is a very easy way to explain how the universe was created. In a universe not bound by time the singularity of the big bang could be an imagined moment & everything else that was added to it after that was a logical necessity. Imagination therefore supercedes our physical reality.
This reality need not be bound by the laws of nature as we have always assumed but rather because this is how it was imagined it is only obvious that once created the laws of nature are bound to follow the path thought took to create this reality. If thought had took a path with e = mc3 then anything within the new reality will be bound by the laws of e = mc3 & there would be no way to escape this law unless you are no longer a part of the new reality.


One problem there ace. Do you have any evidence of thoughts existing outside of reality? Of thoughts creating a reality? How much control do you have over your own thoughts? Can you think of your thoughts before you think them, or do they simply emerge from your consciousness?

Because all the evidence available to us indicated that our thoughts are bound to this reality, within a universe that existed long before us and that we have every reason to believe will continue long after we die and cease thinking. Your mental masturbation is no substitute for evidence.

Also, you imagination and your thoughts cannot supersede reality, because they are apparently bound to it. Sure, you can imagine just about anything. But if someone puts a loaded gun to your head and pulls the trigger, just imagining that the gun fires unicorn farts instead of bullets won't stop if from spattering your grey matter across the wall and rather abruptly ending your imagination session. Unless you have evidence that can support the existence of imaginations and thoughts independent of brains? Good luck with substance dualism.

Man, this is fucking bush league.

[Image: 512TZocJCNL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg]

Seriously, given your level of comprehension, this book should keep you occupied for a few months at least.
Based on the logic of the scientific method:
1. You don't need evidence to create a hypothesis. You need an observation. I observe thought has the power to create something from nothing (ideas). I observe that many things in reality (eg. Pain) does not exist until I perceive it.
2. Your point that "all the evidence indicates that thought is bound by reality" has been addressed on 4 seperate occasions before you wrote that, yet you still wrote it anyway.
Why do you do that: Not counter argue a counter argument, bypass it and then restate the original objection for the purpose of what?

There is no evidence to suggest that reality exists outside of perception because no one has ever been able to remove perception from reality in a single test. It is a logical necessity that perception has to be a part of the test.
If you object to this then state your objection. Instead you prefer to wait 10 posts down to say "all the evidence indicates reality exists outside of perception" completely ignoring the argument that supposedly countered that statement.
Address the counter argument if you wish to correct it.
Your method of debating is not how people usually do debates. If you aren't in the viper's pit to debate why are you here?
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28-03-2016, 04:02 AM
RE: Open Challenge: Reality may not exist without thoughts
(28-03-2016 03:20 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Let's try to keep up with being honest shall we?

First of all, I do not need to defend Thumpa. He is well able to do so himself, and he is a respected member of the forum. You however, are not.

The main problem I see in you is an overconfidence coupled with a lack of understanding the very subjects you wish to discuss. As I pointed out you did not understand the very meaning of the word hallucination. You were then condescending in your response when corrected.

This behavior is why you have generated a negative reputation. You appear very foolish. My advice is this: do not act superior.

I also think you may need to seek out a doctor.

Good luck.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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