Open Challenge to Anyone....
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30-08-2015, 06:30 PM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(30-08-2015 11:49 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Coming from a guy that shares the same position that he does, on the very same topic that me and you debated, the above quote doesn't mean much.
No it's because you failed to prove a position you held, and never once met your burden of proof and because he had a vastly superior command of the material and language then you did. All of which are demonstrably true, have been demonstrated, and are not matters of opinion.

(30-08-2015 11:49 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  As if you are going to admit that you were forced fed a can of whoop ass Laugh out load
This statement can easily be applied to you with the major difference is that it becomes factually accurate when it is. Who is more likely to admit their loss: you who are a documented lier and proven delusional, or someone who is NOT those things?

(30-08-2015 11:49 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  My arguments are from logic and reason, son.
Just claiming it to be so and every single person here has either shredded your spurious "logic" or watched someone else do it. you can repeat this over and over and over as many times as you need to to finally convince yourself but the rest of us know exactly why your full of shit.

(30-08-2015 11:49 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  "Flip a coin and let fate decide" -Two Face
No matter which side it lands on you don't have a place at the table with the adults let alone making demands of their time.


(30-08-2015 11:49 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  You got more excuses than a black man going to jail..and that is a lot Laugh out load
Both extremely racist and also rather hypocritical given you just got done making excuses as to why you refused to accept my challenge.
You really are just a piece of shit ain't ya?

(30-08-2015 11:49 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Because to me, life is meaningless without God.
That's not a correct reason for why you want to be a serial killer at all. Let's say for the sake of argument that there is absolutely 100% no god at all, lets even give you the fucking idiotic nothing that without a supreme tyrant there is no meaning to life....by your own words your first response is to go kill other people. It's not to go have a wank, or watch some or to even kill yourself int he extreme case. it's to go out and Kill other people and that's got NOTHING to do with meaning and EVERYTHING to do with you being at your core a shitty fucking human being. If you think your god can't tell the difference then you believe in an idiot god.
There are nihilists out there that DO think it's meaningless, that there is no higher purpose, that we are just alive because we just happen to be alive. Those people when presented with the idea that life is "meaningless" ...don't go out and start killing people like that's the default setting because they are still decent people.

The objection has everything to do with the fact that you WANT to kill people.

(30-08-2015 11:49 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Because of the few people on here like DP.
Right but your 3 days are up so are you gonna fuck off or are you gonna ashow yourself to be even more of a lier?

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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30-08-2015, 06:32 PM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2015 06:37 PM by Free.)
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(30-08-2015 11:31 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  That is why, in my opinion, atheism shouldn't exist. Everyone should at least be a theist, regardless of what kind of theist you are.

Read my signature.

You do understand that we are all born with no theistic beliefs at all, and in fact we are born into an atheistic state of being?

You do understand that our most naturalistic state of being is to have no beliefs in any gods whatsoever?

You do understand that one cannot become religious unless they are indoctrinated into the religion by those who were previously indoctrinated?

You do understand that regardless of which religion anyone subscribes to, they are all living contrary to their natural atheistic state of being?

You do understand that your religion is a construct that defies the natural and true state of your humanity?

Do you understand that you are living a lie, and your that mind is so programmed that you may never be able to escape because you have been psychologically conditioned to accept all biased information that can confirm your beliefs?

Do you understand that while you were reading this, you never even read it all before you hit the reply button because I said something that you are programmed to confront because it is beyond your control?

Do you understand that we atheists see your type of theists regularly, and we can predict with stunning accuracy exactly what you are going to say before you even think of saying it?

You are predictable, easy to anticipate, and remarkably simple to understand.

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30-08-2015, 06:52 PM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(26-08-2015 10:56 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(26-08-2015 07:18 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Call of the Wild,

I really am interested to see your response to my challenge of the arguments you listed from the issue of metaphysical primacy. I often have a difficult time getting theists to interact with this issue. Maybe you'll be different.

Sorry...I just read it and I really didn't understand the point you are making. Can you give me a syllogism of some kind or rephrase the wording.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I've been finding it hard to make time to comment.

My point is that theism is flawed at the most fundamental level. It assumes the primacy of consciousness metaphysics (see step two below). The issue of metaphysical primacy has to do with the relationship between a conscious subject and the objects it is aware of. Do the objects of consciousness exist independently of the subject's conscious actions such as wishing, wanting, liking, or demanding, or do the objects of consciousness depend on someones conscious activity such as wishing, wanting, liking or demanding? In other words, wishing does not make it so (primacy of existence) or wishing does make it so (primacy of consciousness). Since truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence principle (see below) theism can not be true. Furthermore since logic is how we determine truth from falsehood, logic rests also on the primacy of existence. Any argument which seeks to prove that theism is true then would contradict the primacy of existence and deny a principle foundational to logic and thus would commit the fallacy of the stolen concept. The arguments you listed as well as any argument for theism commit this fallacy and so fail.

The fallacy of the stolen concept occurs when one uses a higher level concept such as logic while denying a concept at its root, in this case the primacy of existence. It amounts to using logic to disprove logic.

You asked me for a syllogism and I'm going to use the one that Dawson Bethrick presented on his blog Incinerating Presuppositionalism. I've seen many different formulations of the argument from metaphysical primacy but his is the clearest and requires the least explanation. He presents it in three steps as follows:

Step 1: Truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence metaphysics:

P1-1: If truth is the identification of reality based on facts which obtain independently of conscious activity (such as preferences, likes and dislikes, wishes, fantasies, emotions, temper tantrums, evasion, etc.), then truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence metaphysics.
P1-2: Truth is the identification of reality based on facts which obtain independently of conscious activity (such as preferences, likes and dislikes, wishes, fantasies, emotions, temper tantrums, evasion, etc.).
C1: Therefore, truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence metaphysics.

Step 2: Theism assumes the primacy of consciousness metaphysics:

P2-1: If theism affirms the existence of a being which can create existence by an act of will, alter the nature of objects which are distinct from itself by an act of will, and/or cause such objects to act by an act of will, then theism assumes the primacy of consciousness metaphysics.
P2-2: Theism affirms the existence of a being which can create existence by an act of will, alter the nature of objects which are distinct from itself by an act of will, and/or cause such to act in any way by an act of will.
C2: Therefore, theism assumes the primacy of consciousness metaphysics.

Step 3: Theism cannot be true:
P3-1: If theism assumes the primacy of consciousness metaphysics, then theism is incompatible with the primacy of existence metaphysics and consequently cannot be true. (From Step 1 above)
P3-2: Theism assumes the primacy of consciousness metaphysics. (From Step 2 above)
C3: Therefore theism is incompatible with the primacy of existence metaphysics and consequently cannot be true.

These arguments are valid and the premises are true. The primacy of existence is a defeator for all of the arguments you listed as well as any other arguments for a god that is claimed to enjoy primacy over any or all of its objects.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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30-08-2015, 07:00 PM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(30-08-2015 04:49 PM)epronovost Wrote:  5 days and at least two persons showed interest in the challenge.

Oh, the hell with it.

Call_of_the_Wild, take your pick of those arguments you listed. I accept your challenge.

Let's see if he ignores this.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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30-08-2015, 07:37 PM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
I think the real challenge here was to ignore this fool.

GROUP FAIL
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30-08-2015, 07:41 PM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(30-08-2015 07:37 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I think the real challenge here was to ignore this fool.

GROUP FAIL

You underestimate the power of boredom.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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30-08-2015, 08:06 PM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(30-08-2015 07:41 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 07:37 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I think the real challenge here was to ignore this fool.

GROUP FAIL

You underestimate the power of boredom.

Yep, there's nothing better than toying with a fool.

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30-08-2015, 08:48 PM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
Crawl_all_the_While has outlived his entertainment value and is now just annoyingly repetitious.

This has got to be the most severe Dunning-Kruger we've ever seen here.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-08-2015, 11:55 AM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(30-08-2015 07:00 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Oh, the hell with it.

Call_of_the_Wild, take your pick of those arguments you listed. I accept your challenge.

Let's see if he ignores this.

Serious inquiries only.
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31-08-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(31-08-2015 11:55 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 07:00 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Oh, the hell with it.

Call_of_the_Wild, take your pick of those arguments you listed. I accept your challenge.

Let's see if he ignores this.

Serious inquiries only.

Oh, I am entirely serious. Take your pick from the list; I'm willing to debate whichever of those arguments you care to put forth. All of them, if you like.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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