Open Challenge to Anyone....
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04-09-2015, 08:37 AM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(02-09-2015 11:59 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(31-08-2015 07:09 PM)Free Wrote:  Yet, the entire human race- every last one of us in human history- were all born with no religious beliefs at all. Every last person in every last civilization was born in an atheistic state of being.

That is the point, we lack a belief in EVERYTHING, not just theistic beliefs. I am still trying to figure out why you think that is such a knockdown argument for your case.

I don't agree with much that CotW says, but I agree strongly with this, and I "liked" the post for that reason. I have never understood why "born this way" is an argument for atheism at all, let alone a good one. We are also born helpless, hairless, naked, and illiterate. So what? When an adult claims to be an atheist, he/she generally means "(1) I am aware of the concept of god(s); (2) I reject that concept." You can't reject something that you're not even aware of. An infant is an "atheist" in the same way that a dog or a bacterium or a rock is --- and that is a pretty meaningless way.

I think the point of the argument is supposed to be that religious beliefs can only be acquired by indoctrination, but that is patently false. You can't indoctrinate someone with an idea that doesn't exist yet. It had to originate some other way. I have done a fair amount of studying into the origins of religion, and "it's all a big con job cooked up for the sole purpose of controlling people" is very much a minority opinion. In most theories concerning the origins of religion, it is thought that people sincerely held their religious beliefs, for what were at the time valid reasons. Of course, if you strongly believe something, you are likely to indoctrinate your children to also believe it, but it doesn't start that way. It can't. The idea/concept has to exist before it can be passed on.

Free is on my ignore list for several reasons, but this is probably the main one. He shoves that stupid, nonsensical non-argument in your face in giant multicolored letters in every one of his posts. I got tired of looking at it.
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04-09-2015, 08:40 AM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(04-09-2015 08:37 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(02-09-2015 11:59 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  That is the point, we lack a belief in EVERYTHING, not just theistic beliefs. I am still trying to figure out why you think that is such a knockdown argument for your case.

I don't agree with much that CotW says, but I agree strongly with this, and I "liked" the post for that reason. I have never understood why "born this way" is an argument for atheism at all, let alone a good one. We are also born helpless, hairless, naked, and illiterate. So what? When an adult claims to be an atheist, he/she generally means "(1) I am aware of the concept of god(s); (2) I reject that concept." You can't reject something that you're not even aware of. An infant is an "atheist" in the same way that a dog or a bacterium or a rock is --- and that is a pretty meaningless way.

I think the point of the argument is supposed to be that religious beliefs can only be acquired by indoctrination, but that is patently false. You can't indoctrinate someone with an idea that doesn't exist yet. It had to originate some other way. I have done a fair amount of studying into the origins of religion, and "it's all a big con job cooked up for the sole purpose of controlling people" is very much a minority opinion. In most theories concerning the origins of religion, it is thought that people sincerely held their religious beliefs, for what were at the time valid reasons. Of course, if you strongly believe something, you are likely to indoctrinate your children to also believe it, but it doesn't start that way. It can't. The idea/concept has to exist before it can be passed on.

Free is on my ignore list for several reasons, but this is probably the main one. He shoves that stupid, nonsensical non-argument in your face in giant multicolored letters in every one of his posts. I got tired of looking at it.

Do you understand that the definition of atheism is "most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist."

And that is exactly the way we are all born. Compare that definition to my signature.

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04-09-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(04-09-2015 08:37 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(02-09-2015 11:59 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  That is the point, we lack a belief in EVERYTHING, not just theistic beliefs. I am still trying to figure out why you think that is such a knockdown argument for your case.

I don't agree with much that CotW says, but I agree strongly with this, and I "liked" the post for that reason. I have never understood why "born this way" is an argument for atheism at all, let alone a good one. We are also born helpless, hairless, naked, and illiterate. So what? When an adult claims to be an atheist, he/she generally means "(1) I am aware of the concept of god(s); (2) I reject that concept." You can't reject something that you're not even aware of. An infant is an "atheist" in the same way that a dog or a bacterium or a rock is --- and that is a pretty meaningless way.

I think the point of the argument is supposed to be that religious beliefs can only be acquired by indoctrination, but that is patently false. You can't indoctrinate someone with an idea that doesn't exist yet. It had to originate some other way. I have done a fair amount of studying into the origins of religion, and "it's all a big con job cooked up for the sole purpose of controlling people" is very much a minority opinion. In most theories concerning the origins of religion, it is thought that people sincerely held their religious beliefs, for what were at the time valid reasons. Of course, if you strongly believe something, you are likely to indoctrinate your children to also believe it, but it doesn't start that way. It can't. The idea/concept has to exist before it can be passed on.

Free is on my ignore list for several reasons, but this is probably the main one. He shoves that stupid, nonsensical non-argument in your face in giant multicolored letters in every one of his posts. I got tired of looking at it.
I am not sure about this forum... However, in most I am on you can disable signatures...
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04-09-2015, 11:35 AM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(04-09-2015 10:06 AM)ohio_drg Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 08:37 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I don't agree with much that CotW says, but I agree strongly with this, and I "liked" the post for that reason. I have never understood why "born this way" is an argument for atheism at all, let alone a good one. We are also born helpless, hairless, naked, and illiterate. So what? When an adult claims to be an atheist, he/she generally means "(1) I am aware of the concept of god(s); (2) I reject that concept." You can't reject something that you're not even aware of. An infant is an "atheist" in the same way that a dog or a bacterium or a rock is --- and that is a pretty meaningless way.

I think the point of the argument is supposed to be that religious beliefs can only be acquired by indoctrination, but that is patently false. You can't indoctrinate someone with an idea that doesn't exist yet. It had to originate some other way. I have done a fair amount of studying into the origins of religion, and "it's all a big con job cooked up for the sole purpose of controlling people" is very much a minority opinion. In most theories concerning the origins of religion, it is thought that people sincerely held their religious beliefs, for what were at the time valid reasons. Of course, if you strongly believe something, you are likely to indoctrinate your children to also believe it, but it doesn't start that way. It can't. The idea/concept has to exist before it can be passed on.

Free is on my ignore list for several reasons, but this is probably the main one. He shoves that stupid, nonsensical non-argument in your face in giant multicolored letters in every one of his posts. I got tired of looking at it.
I am not sure about this forum... However, in most I am on you can disable signatures...

I think you can do that here, but it's global -- I don't think you can block just one person's signature, and his is the only one that bothers me. And he's on ignore for other reasons as well, so I'll just keep doing that. My blood pressure has been much more stable since I don't see his posts anymore.

Big Grin
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07-09-2015, 12:17 PM (This post was last modified: 07-09-2015 12:20 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(31-08-2015 07:09 PM)Free Wrote:  1 + 1 = 2 is truth.

(02-09-2015 11:59 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  I don't think the question of "Do you believe 2+2=4" is an invalid question. It is still a belief, a TRUE belief.

must resist must resist must resist must resist resist must ....

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS FIBONACCI, QUIT USING ARITHMETIC AS SOME SORT OF UNIVERSAL ABSOLUTE TRUTH! IT IS ALWAYS RELATIVE TO A RADIX!

goddam idiots.

#sigh
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07-09-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(07-09-2015 12:17 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(31-08-2015 07:09 PM)Free Wrote:  1 + 1 = 2 is truth.

(02-09-2015 11:59 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  I don't think the question of "Do you believe 2+2=4" is an invalid question. It is still a belief, a TRUE belief.

must resist must resist must resist must resist resist must ....

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS FIBONACCI, QUIT USING ARITHMETIC AS SOME SORT OF UNIVERSAL ABSOLUTE TRUTH! IT IS ALWAYS RELATIVE TO A RADIX!

goddam idiots.

Gotta say, I'm with Girly on this one. Maths not withstanding ... anyone who crochets is well aware of the myriad of spacial implications inherent in a single stitch. Drinking Beverage


(Hint: "single" has little to do with "one".)

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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07-09-2015, 01:20 PM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(07-09-2015 12:17 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(31-08-2015 07:09 PM)Free Wrote:  1 + 1 = 2 is truth.

(02-09-2015 11:59 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  I don't think the question of "Do you believe 2+2=4" is an invalid question. It is still a belief, a TRUE belief.

must resist must resist must resist must resist resist must ....

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS FIBONACCI, QUIT USING ARITHMETIC AS SOME SORT OF UNIVERSAL ABSOLUTE TRUTH! IT IS ALWAYS RELATIVE TO A RADIX!

goddam idiots.

Most people do not mean the symbols are anything but language. And only their native base 10.

What I believe he means is:

[Image: 2plus2.gif]

is a universal truth. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
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07-09-2015, 01:22 PM (This post was last modified: 07-09-2015 01:29 PM by Free.)
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(07-09-2015 01:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-09-2015 12:17 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  must resist must resist must resist must resist resist must ....

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS FIBONACCI, QUIT USING ARITHMETIC AS SOME SORT OF UNIVERSAL ABSOLUTE TRUTH! IT IS ALWAYS RELATIVE TO A RADIX!

goddam idiots.

Most people do not mean the symbols are anything but language. And only their native base 10.

What I believe he means is:

[Image: 2plus2.gif]

is a universal truth. Consider

Yes.

Thank you for stating what should have been obvious.

Sorry Girly, but two identical objects plus two more identical objects equals four identical objects, and that would be a universal truth.

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07-09-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(07-09-2015 01:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  Most people do not mean the symbols are anything but language. And only their native base 10.

And I think you overestimate people. I think there are some here who don't even realize what "base 10" means. Still don't think Tommyboy understands how 2+2=10 or 2+2=11.

#sigh
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07-09-2015, 01:45 PM
RE: Open Challenge to Anyone....
(07-09-2015 01:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-09-2015 01:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  Most people do not mean the symbols are anything but language. And only their native base 10.

And I think you overestimate people. I think there are some here who don't even realize what "base 10" means. Still don't think Tommyboy understands how 2+2=10 or 2+2=11.

Theoretically, 2+2 can = anything.

But in whole numbers, it's 4.

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