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09-02-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Open Discussion
Because shit-and-run pigeon.





Hmmm...need to make an animated gif for that....




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It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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15-02-2014, 04:01 AM
RE: Open Discussion
(07-02-2014 11:06 PM)Cephalotus Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 10:53 PM)Onlinewatcher Wrote:  I know Atheists are quite sensitive about being labeled as one's having beliefs and I am not sure I know why. I understand that you are denying something but denial doesn't exist in a vacuum. Something denied is usually supplanted with some form of positive assumptions. When I ask Atheists about a given topic they usually respond with a certain consistency which suggests a body of belief. They seem to share many beliefs with those on the left regarding social issues, a high value is given to science, their assumptions usually seem to align themselves with humanist assumptions, acceptance of abortion stem cell research etc. They definitely share assumptions about certain fundamental beliefs such as origins, purpose in life and after life. These are major foundations of any belief system. So I guess my question is, "Why do atheists object to having an identifiable body of common of belief?"

I can't speak for every atheist, but I think the issue is the stigma attached to the word "belief." Nobody "believes" science; we understand it. It is falsifiable and not written in stone. It's constantly changing. The reason it appears to be faith and/or belief based to an outsider is because those vaguely 'unifying' trends have only ever been observed within religions. As far as I know, there has never been a society or large country that didn't have an official (or hell, even unofficial) religion. For most of human history it has been the norm and it is still how most people choose to view things.

I don't think atheists should technically be considered to be denying deities. If we lived in a future where religion was softly fading away, this discussion would only exist in philosophy classes.

What needs to be understood is that atheism is a rejection of a claim. A theistic claim to be precise. That in itself can't be a claim. If atheism is a belief then bald is a hair colour, off is a TV channel and NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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15-02-2014, 04:40 AM
RE: Open Discussion
Dom wrote:
"It's not beliefs we share, it's acknowledgement of facts. Other than that we are as different as can be."


And Dom, even our acknowledgement of facts are as varied as the traits of uniqueness and experiences in each of us.

I really don't like most Theist threads. They seep sanctimonious entitlement out of their hard little hearts. It's useless. Out of here!

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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15-02-2014, 09:37 AM
RE: Open Discussion
^A secular world view works out best for everyone. Sad panda.

(15-02-2014 04:01 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 11:06 PM)Cephalotus Wrote:  I can't speak for every atheist, but I think the issue is the stigma attached to the word "belief." Nobody "believes" science; we understand it. It is falsifiable and not written in stone. It's constantly changing. The reason it appears to be faith and/or belief based to an outsider is because those vaguely 'unifying' trends have only ever been observed within religions. As far as I know, there has never been a society or large country that didn't have an official (or hell, even unofficial) religion. For most of human history it has been the norm and it is still how most people choose to view things.

I don't think atheists should technically be considered to be denying deities. If we lived in a future where religion was softly fading away, this discussion would only exist in philosophy classes.

What needs to be understood is that atheism is a rejection of a claim. A theistic claim to be precise. That in itself can't be a claim. If atheism is a belief then bald is a hair colour, off is a TV channel and NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.

It's hard to stick to the standard definitions (even in my own head) when discussing it with theists, because they tend to lump all atheists, apatheists, satanists, etc. together into one category. They all seem too preoccupied with the idea that: "You are DENYING my awesome God?! FUCK YOU ALL!" I live in the south and I have jump through hoops to try to explain atheism to people without using negative words like that. My own geographical issue, not yours. I forgot I wasn't in hostile territory.

Btw, does anybody know if the op is ever coming back? Or should we just keep talking about whatever comes up?

THIS USER IS NO LONGER ACTIVE. THANK YOU, AND HAVE A GREAT DAY! http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...a-few-days
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15-02-2014, 09:47 AM
RE: Open Discussion
(15-02-2014 09:37 AM)Cephalotus Wrote:  ^A secular world view works out best for everyone. Sad panda.

(15-02-2014 04:01 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  What needs to be understood is that atheism is a rejection of a claim. A theistic claim to be precise. That in itself can't be a claim. If atheism is a belief then bald is a hair colour, off is a TV channel and NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.

It's hard to stick to the standard definitions (even in my own head) when discussing it with theists, because they tend to lump all atheists, apatheists, satanists, etc. together into one category. They all seem too preoccupied with the idea that: "You are DENYING my awesome God?! FUCK YOU ALL!" I live in the south and I have jump through hoops to try to explain atheism to people without using negative words like that. My own geographical issue, not yours. I forgot I wasn't in hostile territory.

Btw, does anybody know if the op is ever coming back? Or should we just keep talking about whatever comes up?

Probably not, but I've moved this thread out of the intro section since debate there isn't really appropriate.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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15-02-2014, 10:07 AM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2014 10:10 AM by Adrianime.)
RE: Open Discussion
(07-02-2014 10:53 PM)Onlinewatcher Wrote:  This comment is probably a good place to start. I know Atheists are quite sensitive about being labeled as one's having beliefs and I am not sure I know why. I understand that you are denying something but denial doesn't exist in a vacuum. Something denied is usually supplanted with some form of positive assumptions. When I ask Atheists about a given topic they usually respond with a certain consistency which suggests a body of belief. They seem to share many beliefs with those on the left regarding social issues, a high value is given to science, their assumptions usually seem to align themselves with humanist assumptions, acceptance of abortion stem cell research etc. They definitely share assumptions about certain fundamental beliefs such as origins, purpose in life and after life. These are major foundations of any belief system. So I guess my question is, "Why do atheists object to having an identifiable body of common of belief?"
Although this poster appears to have left, I will comment just to add another perspective.

I won't try to speak for other atheists, because that is stupid. I came to my own conclusions and think about the world in my own way. I'm sure they have all done the same. So here is my main issue with trying to group us into a body of belief.

I am a lifelong atheist. I wasn't raised by atheists. I didn't grow up knowing other atheists. I didn't interact with atheists online. I didn't have teachers who told me atheism was correct. Most of my friends growing were religious theists. I don't, and have never read "atheist" books. For the first 22~ish years of my life, I was alone in my atheism.

I'm saying this because even if I happen to meet other atheists now who happen to hold some similar views as me on non-theistic issues. So what? It doesn't mean anything. My conclusions were reached independently. There is not an atheist doctrine or teaching that tells each one of us how to think, live, or what stances are appropriate. We aren't a body of belief. We are linked through our non-belief (in magic essentially [but not technically], but specifically in gods). We are individuals who hold beliefs, that sometimes mesh, but many times do not.

I know several of my beliefs are not shared by the majority of the members of this forum. But...I don't expect them to be either.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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15-02-2014, 12:41 PM
RE: Open Discussion
Onlinewatcher - If there are certain aspects of reality that are confusing to you, please ask and we will attempt to explain, as best we can.

As human beings, we have beliefs. We also accept and understand the process that science takes in explaining a body of work by observing, gathering evidence, experimentation and then creating a model of how we think the process works. That model will also have predictive capabilities that are extremely useful. The model will continue to be updated as new information is gained making it more accurate as the years go by.

As atheists, we only have one question that applies to us. Do we believe a god or gods exist ?
If the answer is no, you're an atheist. Any other answer is some form of theism.

Atheists do not share any set common beliefs, nor do we make any positive claims about the non-existence of gods, fairies, unicorns or anything supernatural. Our skepticism and acceptance of scientific principles may put us in the same camp on many issues, but not necessarily.

We do not have a belief in gods because, to date, there isn't any evidence to merit such a belief.
If someone should ever come up with some evidence that can be tested, verified, re-tested, scrutinized, etc, then we'll be happy to change our position. That's what science is about. Present evidence for your claim. Backup what you assert with proof and minds will be changed.

Theism is semi-stagnant in it's body of belief. It wasn't until 1993 did the Catholic Church officially accept that the earth orbited the sun and formally acquitted Galileo, 360 years after his indictment, of heretical support for Copernicus’s heliocentrism.

I use the word semi-stagnant at least for the bible because it has changed over the years. It gets changed by anyone who wants to change it and then preach those changes as truth.

[Image: proxy.jpg?t=HBgeaHR0cDovL2kuaW1ndXIuY29t...iczOwU5m4g]

Lastly, you used the word "denial" when referring to our lack of belief in a god.
When you deny a fact, you are simply wrong and potentially delusional.
I cannot deny a belief. Something must exist before I can deny it's existence.
Theist deny factual information about the world all the time, instead choosing to believe something that has no evidentiary support or foundation in fact.

Faith is believing something that has no evidentiary support or foundation in fact.
Without a foundation, all you can build are lies.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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16-02-2014, 01:20 AM
RE: Open Discussion
(07-02-2014 08:05 PM)Onlinewatcher Wrote:  To All,

I have been listening to TTA for quite some time and I must be upfront that I am not a subscriber to the beliefs proposed by the Forum. I do, however, hope for respectful dialogue with those whose beliefs differ from mine as we do think about the issues involved.

Onlinewatcher

This is an internet forum, and one that is very tolerant of what people say. As such, there will be those who you can have a nice respectful conversation with, and those who will turn it into a pissing contest or use you as a their personal pinata to take theior childhood frustrations out on at your first encounter. Don't let the bastards grind you down, and you'll be fine.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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