Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
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09-12-2014, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2014 12:49 PM by tear151.)
Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
THIS IS BOLD AND IN ALL CAPS TO AVOID EVEN THE SLIGHTEST POSSIBILITY OF CONFUSION, I SPECIFICALLY MEAN OBJECTIVE MORALS NOT SUBJECTIVE, THIS IS NOT A THEIST "ATHEISTS HAVE NO MORALS THREAD", THIS IS A SERIOUS SECULAR DEBATE I AM OPENING ON THE NATURE OF SECULAR ETHICS. PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THAT MISTAKE

I am very much a moral anti-realist, I hold that no moral truths exist in the world, and that any statements one makes about morality are entirely subjective, it is even perfectly acceptable to reject the concept whatsoever.

If anyone is the following

1. Not religious

2. Believe in secular objective morality

3. Is interested in a debate with me

I'm to directly engage someone 1 and 1, my thread on philosophy generate a lot of discussion, now I want to take this seriously one and one with someone who believes in objective ethics.

"A witty quote means nothing"
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09-12-2014, 10:50 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
You're going to be hard-pressed to find someone who believes in objective morality around here. Even the token theist believes morality is subjective.

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09-12-2014, 11:20 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(09-12-2014 10:50 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...
Even the token theist believes morality is subjective.

Welcome back, Mr Token

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10-12-2014, 07:37 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
I say that morality is the synthesis of subjective values and objective reality, and I would argue that a godless universe is no different to a god universe in that regard.

I think every moral proposition can be broken down into a subjective value statement and objective statement about reality, for example.
Subjective: I value human life
Objective: Murder ends human life.
Moral proposition: Murder is morally wrong
This proposition can then be argued in terms of it components, primarily of its subjective component:
You value human life? How does the value of a human life compare to that of a rabbit[1]? What if the human is, like, a really bad person?

Likewise in a system that contains a god the subjective component of morality either reflects the gods values, the creation's values, or a synthesis of the two. Rather than being more objective it seems that the objective component is the flexible one in such a system. For example god may face a terrible moral choice between allowing his chosen people to be corrupted by foreign religion and commanding an ethnic cleansing... but being a god he can change objective reality and artificially separate the two whereas a mere human would be left to consider their values in the face of this objective reality.

[1] http://www.chia-anime.com/1-kinos-journe...-episode-2

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10-12-2014, 08:14 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(09-12-2014 12:43 PM)tear151 Wrote:  THIS IS BOLD AND IN ALL CAPS TO AVOID EVEN THE SLIGHTEST POSSIBILITY OF CONFUSION, I SPECIFICALLY MEAN OBJECTIVE MORALS NOT SUBJECTIVE, THIS IS NOT A THEIST "ATHEISTS HAVE NO MORALS THREAD", THIS IS A SERIOUS SECULAR DEBATE I AM OPENING ON THE NATURE OF SECULAR ETHICS. PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THAT MISTAKE


WRITING STUFF IN BIG COLOURED CAPITAL LETTERS MAKES EVERYTHING I WRITE MORE INTERESTING!!!!!!!!!!!
........... not

Quote:I am very much a moral anti-realist, I hold that no moral truths exist in the world, and that any statements one makes about morality are entirely subjective, it is even perfectly acceptable to reject the concept whatsoever.

If anyone is the following

1. Not religious

2. Believe in secular objective morality

3. Is interested in a debate with me

You do not get to set the standard on what your oponent believes in a debate.

Now shoot.

I'm to directly engage someone 1 and 1, my thread on philosophy generate a lot of discussion, now I want to take this seriously one and one with someone who believes in objective ethics.

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10-12-2014, 09:19 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 08:14 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 12:43 PM)tear151 Wrote:  THIS IS BOLD AND IN ALL CAPS TO AVOID EVEN THE SLIGHTEST POSSIBILITY OF CONFUSION, I SPECIFICALLY MEAN OBJECTIVE MORALS NOT SUBJECTIVE, THIS IS NOT A THEIST "ATHEISTS HAVE NO MORALS THREAD", THIS IS A SERIOUS SECULAR DEBATE I AM OPENING ON THE NATURE OF SECULAR ETHICS. PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THAT MISTAKE


WRITING STUFF IN BIG COLOURED CAPITAL LETTERS MAKES EVERYTHING I WRITE MORE INTERESTING!!!!!!!!!!!
........... not

Quote:I am very much a moral anti-realist, I hold that no moral truths exist in the world, and that any statements one makes about morality are entirely subjective, it is even perfectly acceptable to reject the concept whatsoever.

If anyone is the following

1. Not religious

2. Believe in secular objective morality

3. Is interested in a debate with me

You do not get to set the standard on what your oponent believes in a debate.

Now shoot.

I'm to directly engage someone 1 and 1, my thread on philosophy generate a lot of discussion, now I want to take this seriously one and one with someone who believes in objective ethics.

Erm... Somone who agrees with the position I want to argue against is pretty essential.

Perhaps next il start challenging other atheists to arguments about god existance, how dare you demand a theist, you dont get to decide that!

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10-12-2014, 09:24 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 09:19 AM)tear151 Wrote:  Erm... Somone who agrees with the position I want to argue against is pretty essential.
Well, not necessarily. People play the devil's advocate in debates all the time.

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10-12-2014, 09:29 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 09:24 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(10-12-2014 09:19 AM)tear151 Wrote:  Erm... Somone who agrees with the position I want to argue against is pretty essential.
Well, not necessarily. People play the devil's advocate in debates all the time.

Yes, but I only see the point of playing "to win" if its a "duel"

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10-12-2014, 09:30 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
1) you don't have to believe something to debate on that side. I was once in a debate arguing that interracial couples shouldn't be allowed to have children. Being that I have mixed race children, I'm pretty sure I don't actually believe that.

2) why do you want to debate something everyone agrees with you on? Where are you going to find an atheist who believes in objective morality?

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10-12-2014, 09:38 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 09:30 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  1) you don't have to believe something to debate on that side. I was once in a debate arguing that interracial couples shouldn't be allowed to have children. Being that I have mixed race children, I'm pretty sure I don't actually believe that.

2) why do you want to debate something everyone agrees with you on? Where are you going to find an atheist who believes in objective morality?

Matt dillahunt argued that ethical systems can be objectively better than others.

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