Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
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12-12-2014, 01:36 PM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2014 01:43 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 01:24 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 12:14 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If the wrong taught to us by culture, parents, and leaders can be discarded, and I have no capacity to dictate what is wrong or right for anyone else, who does than? No one? Are we left as our our moral masters, who can each choose what is right or wrong, or even choose to believe nothing is right or wrong?

Yes.

And if i chose to believe that nothing is right or wrong, then I can possibly free myself of a great deal of guilt, even of actions you yourself might feel guilty about committing.

If I believe there is nothing wrong with me being selfish, with being greedy, or arrogant, or dickish, than I can be free of any guilt when I chose to act in such ways. Correct?
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12-12-2014, 01:41 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 01:24 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
Quote:If the wrong taught to us by culture, parents, and leaders can be discarded, and I have no capacity to dictate what is wrong or right for anyone else, who does than? No one? Are we left as our our moral masters, who can each choose what is right or wrong, or even choose to believe nothing is right or wrong?

Yes.

Innit great? Thumbsup Hakuna matata... It means no worries...

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-12-2014, 01:46 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 09:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why is being an ass "wrong", because you've been told that it is by your parents and your society? Or because you conscious reveals it as wrong, that it won't let you sleep as well at night, if you behave like a dick, if you don't live morally?

I’m having a hard time deciphering what you’re getting at with this.

I’ll try to answer your question with what I think you’re asking me.

My one word answer is “empathy”.

We need to define certain terms:

conscience = conscious? -

I agree with the following:
"Conscience is an aptitude, faculty, intuition or judgment that assists in distinguishing right from wrong. Moral judgment may derive from values or norms (principles and rules).”
“Common secular or scientific views regard the capacity for conscience as probably genetically determined, with its subject probably learned or imprinted (like language) as part of a culture.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscience

morality -

I agree with the following:
“Morality can be a body of standards or principles derived from a code of conduct from a particular philosophy, religion, culture, etc.,...”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality

Now we probably have to define standards and principles I suppose but not now.

Once my parents/society taught me “right from wrong” and I internalized these precepts then going against them triggers the conscious/subcoscious part of your brain, “the neural network underlying moral decisions overlapped with the network pertaining to representing others' intentions (i.e., theory of mind) and the network pertaining to representing others' (vicariously experienced) emotional states (i.e., empathy). This supports the notion that moral reasoning is related to both seeing things from other persons’ points of view and to grasping others’ feelings.” (see link above).

What at first appears as a simple question turns out to be more complex than a simple one word answer but for the sake of brevity I think empathy should suffice.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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12-12-2014, 01:47 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 01:36 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 01:24 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Yes.

And if chose to believe that nothing is right or wrong, then I can possibly free myself of a great deal of guilt, even of actions you yourself might feel guilty about committing.

If I believe there is nothing wrong with me being selfish, with being greedy, or arrogant, or dickish, than I can be free of any guilt when I chose to act in such ways. Correct?

Sure, if you could chose to believe something. Even if you believe God is there going to punish you for it you could do that. Nothing is altered in these scenarios you draw up.

You can potentially free yourself of supposed guilt, but as you may want to dismiss in this discussion, it is a psychological concept boosted by your evolutionary past that doesn't require a definitive concept of Right/Wrong to have effects.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-12-2014, 01:57 PM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2014 02:08 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 01:46 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I’ll try to answer your question with what I think you’re asking me.

My one word answer is “empathy”.

It's not empathy, you're attempting to say something about empathy, but are not very forthcoming about it.

Another poster expressed the point more clearly. That he believed he has some sort of *obligation to be empathetic, and guilt is a product of him feeling he's failed to act in such away.

Why he might have trouble sleeping, is because he may be plagued by some sense of guilt, for not acting empathetically, and acting in ways contrary to it.

It's because we believe that acting in ways contrary to empathy, to love and compassion, are wrong, that we find ourselves feeling guilt when we act in such ways.

*within the context of his empathy he feels a sense of obligation
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12-12-2014, 02:03 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 01:36 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And if i chose to believe that nothing is right or wrong, then I can possibly free myself of a great deal of guilt, even of actions you yourself might feel guilty about committing.

If I believe there is nothing wrong with me being selfish, with being greedy, or arrogant, or dickish, than I can be free of any guilt when I chose to act in such ways. Correct?

Sure, but if you choose to act that way the rest of society is going to make sure you have a bad time. Remember the monkeys in the cage?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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12-12-2014, 02:04 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 01:47 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It is a psychological concept boosted by your evolutionary past that doesn't require a definitive concept of Right/Wrong to have effects.

What exactly does this psychological concept boosted by my evolutionary past cause me to do here? Will it keep me believing that these things are wrong? Or that it will keep me feeling guilty even when I no longer believe these things are wrong?
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12-12-2014, 02:05 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 01:57 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 01:46 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I’ll try to answer your question with what I think you’re asking me.

My one word answer is “empathy”.

It's not empathy, you're attempting to say something about empathy, but are not very forthcoming about it.

Another poster expressed the point more clearly. That he believed he has some sort of obligation to be empathetic, and guilt is a product of him feeling he's failed to act in such away.

Why he might have trouble sleeping, is because he may be plagued by some sense of guilt, for not acting empathetically, and acting in ways contrary to it.

It's because we believe that acting in ways contrary to empathy, to love and compassion, are wrong, that we find ourselves feeling guilt when we act in such ways.

I thought I was being forthcoming, that’s why I included my understandings and definitions of the terms within the spoiler. It appears to me we are talking past each other. I have either failed to understand your question or you my answer.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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12-12-2014, 02:07 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 01:57 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Another poster expressed the point more clearly. That he believed he has some sort of obligation to be empathetic, and guilt is a product of him feeling he's failed to act in such away.

No, you didn't read what I said. I stated that within the context of my empathy I feel a sense of obligation. There's a difference.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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12-12-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 02:07 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  No, you didn't read what I said. I stated that within the context of my empathy I feel a sense of obligation. There's a difference.

I edited my post, to include your clarification.
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