Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
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12-12-2014, 02:33 PM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2014 02:37 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 02:03 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 01:36 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And if i chose to believe that nothing is right or wrong, then I can possibly free myself of a great deal of guilt, even of actions you yourself might feel guilty about committing.

If I believe there is nothing wrong with me being selfish, with being greedy, or arrogant, or dickish, than I can be free of any guilt when I chose to act in such ways. Correct?

Sure, but if you choose to act that way the rest of society is going to make sure you have a bad time. Remember the monkeys in the cage?

Well, monkeys are not as crafty as human beings. If your smart and charismatic, you can be selfish, and greedy, arrogant, and dickish, and learn to manipulate people's opinions of you well enough, you can be quite popular in your social circles (think of cats), if that sort of popularity matters to you that is.

Even in a forum society like this, even though I'm not well received, with very few fans, and quite a number of folks who would probably label me an arrogant prick, I'm hardly having a bad time. In fact I manage to enjoy myself quite well in spite of it, perhaps even as a result of this. It has its appeal.

It's likely that if you behaved arrogantly, greedy, and selfishly, you'd have a horrible time with that, but there are plenty of gifted souls that manage to have quite a good time with that, in ways that which your particular ways of life might appear excruciatingly boring.
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12-12-2014, 02:40 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 02:33 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 02:03 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Sure, but if you choose to act that way the rest of society is going to make sure you have a bad time. Remember the monkeys in the cage?

Well, monkeys are not as crafty as human beings. If your smart and charismatic, you can be selfish, and greedy, arrogant, and dickish, and learn to manipulate people's opinions of you well enough, you can be quite popular in your social circles (think of cats), if that sort of popularity matters to you that is.

What's your point? Is precisely what loadsa dicks *do* do? Doesn't invalidate morality being subjective.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-12-2014, 02:41 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 01:24 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If the wrong taught to us by culture, parents, and leaders can be discarded, and I have no capacity to dictate what is wrong or right for anyone else, who does than? No one? Are we left as our own moral masters, who can each choose what is right or wrong, or even choose to believe nothing is right or wrong?

Why do you do that twisting of words thing why you reply, or ask more of the same tired questions in your case? I did not say in my post that the values learned from my parents, culture and leaders should be discarded. I said that some things would not necessarily be "wrong" if you DISCARD the shame preached in churches. I do not wish or infer to throw away the values of right and wrong that I have come to know.

Man you are a shifty dude! Now stop being a weasel and face the fear that there is no god like a grown person should!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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12-12-2014, 02:49 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 02:41 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Why do you do that twisting of words thing why you reply, or ask more of the same tired questions in your case? I did not say in my post that the values learned from my parents, culture and leaders should be discarded. I said that some things would not necessarily be "wrong" if you DISCARD the shame preached in churches. I do not wish or infer to throw away the values of right and wrong that I have come to know.

Man you are a shifty dude! Now stop being a weasel and face the fear that there is no god like a grown person should!

I never said, or implied that you claimed these values should be discarded. In fact I'm sure there are plenty of the values you believe shouldn't be discarded.

I said they can be discarded. Meaning that if someone chose to discard them, they can, and not that you were suggesting that they should.
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12-12-2014, 02:50 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 02:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 01:47 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It is a psychological concept boosted by your evolutionary past that doesn't require a definitive concept of Right/Wrong to have effects.

What exactly does this psychological concept boosted by my evolutionary past cause me to do here? Will it keep me believing that these things are wrong? Or that it will keep me feeling guilty even when I no longer believe these things are wrong?

I don't know why you keep bringing things back to wrongness, it's not really relevant. Your brain would still likely to have chemical reactions toward feelings of empathy and guilt regardless. Unless you really weren't just someone who didn't believe in wrongess/morality and were physiologically a sociopath.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-12-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 02:33 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 02:03 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Sure, but if you choose to act that way the rest of society is going to make sure you have a bad time. Remember the monkeys in the cage?

Well, monkeys are not as crafty as human beings. If your smart and charismatic, you can be selfish, and greedy, arrogant, and dickish, and learn to manipulate people's opinions of you well enough, you can be quite popular in your social circles (think of cats), if that sort of popularity matters to you that is.

Even in a forum society like this, even though I'm not well received, with very few fans, and quite a number of folks who would probably label me an arrogant prick, I'm hardly having a bad time. In fact I manage to enjoy myself quite well in spite of it, perhaps even as a result of this. It has its appeal.

It's likely that if you behaved arrogantly, greedy, and selfishly, you'd have a horrible time with that, but there are plenty of gifted souls that manage to have quite a good time with that, in ways that which your particular ways of life might appear excruciatingly boring.

You're right. People are easily tricked into accepting and even lauding things that are not in any way good for them. (and for transparency, yes I am definitely alluding to belief in any sort of benevolent deity who requires you to judge others based on ignorant misconceptions of reality)

But this says much more about the frailty of the human psyche than it does about morality.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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12-12-2014, 03:01 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 02:50 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 02:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  What exactly does this psychological concept boosted by my evolutionary past cause me to do here? Will it keep me believing that these things are wrong? Or that it will keep me feeling guilty even when I no longer believe these things are wrong?

I don't know why you keep bringing things back to wrongness, it's not really relevant. Your brain would still likely to have chemical reactions toward feelings of empathy and guilt regardless. Unless you really weren't just someone who didn't believe in wrongess/morality and were physiologically a sociopath.

I want to see how this play out with human examples.

I don't believe in wrongess/morality, I'm at the mall one day, and I noticed that someone dropped their phone. I'm currently low on cash, and my friends want to go snowboarding next weekend. Rather than returning the phone to the respective owner, I decided to sell it and keep the money. No ones the wiser, and i made a few hundred bucks.

How would chemical reactions towards feeling of empathy and guilt play out here?
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12-12-2014, 03:11 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 03:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  How would chemical reactions towards feeling of empathy and guilt play out here?

Come on now. This is an internet forum. You want the answer to that? Go to school for it. There are many people who are better than you or me who have dedicated their lives to figuring out that shit, and they have. Just because you don't want to put in the effort of finding out doesn't give you the right to make light of how things work.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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12-12-2014, 03:12 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 03:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 02:50 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't know why you keep bringing things back to wrongness, it's not really relevant. Your brain would still likely to have chemical reactions toward feelings of empathy and guilt regardless. Unless you really weren't just someone who didn't believe in wrongess/morality and were physiologically a sociopath.

I want to see how this play out with human examples.

I don't believe in wrongess/morality, I'm at the mall one day, and I noticed that someone dropped their phone. I'm currently low on cash, and my friends want to go snowboarding next weekend. Rather than returning the phone to the respective owner, I decided to sell it and keep the money. No ones the wiser, and i made a few hundred bucks.

How would chemical reactions towards feeling of empathy and guilt play out here?

That'd be a hypothetical not an example.

And potentially it wouldn't factor within that scenario. Especially since that's a disassociated scenario from any person. The general types of natural responses that would cause the emphatic feelings connect via bonding with people. You're more likely experiencing them with the known quality of bonding to your friends than an out of sight/out of mind stranger.

In a scenario of you having no concept of wrongness, but physically contacting and harming a person you identify with as a person; you're brain may experience chemical reactions of empathic and guilt feelings. It doesn't mean it will stop you from continuing any action though.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-12-2014, 03:19 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 10:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-12-2014 10:36 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Every "moral decision" is passed through and interpreted by human brains.
Is "taking a human life" immoral ?
Yes sometimes, no other times. Humans make moral judgments all the time.
Religionists argue all the time about what circumstances constitute a justification for "taking a life". What you consider immoral, what I consider immoral, and what other atheists and religionists consider immoral are TOTALLY relative to what goes on our brains.

So no. You are totally wrong.

Can the same be said about pretty much every other subjective judgement, like for good and bad music?

i.e.

Every descision of whether a particular form of music is good or bad is passed through and interpreted by human brains.

Is "country music" bad ?
Yes sometimes, no other times. Humans make music judgments all the time.
Critics argue all the time about what circumstances make a song good. What you consider bad music, what I consider music good , and what other folks and country music enthusiasist consider good music are TOTALLY relative to what goes on our brains.

Also, I don't see how anything you've said is an arguments against moral relativism.

Universal hard core absolutes appear impossible to me.
We cannot recognize the postulated absolute goodness of any projected universal god.
We can however relate to very basic human states such as pain, thirst, hunger etc and use such as a very basic guide.....
Moral relativism, in my view, when dealt with in good conscience, is the preferred ethical position.
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