Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
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10-12-2014, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2014 09:43 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 09:30 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  2) why do you want to debate something everyone agrees with you on? Where are you going to find an atheist who believes in objective morality?

Well, it's been my experience that atheists tend to appeal to an objective morality all the time. They seem unwilling to admit that someone who disagrees with their moral positions, is not wrong in any objective sense.
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10-12-2014, 09:53 AM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2014 09:57 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 09:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-12-2014 09:30 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  2) why do you want to debate something everyone agrees with you on? Where are you going to find an atheist who believes in objective morality?

Well, it's been my experience that atheists tend to appeal to an objective morality all the time. They seem unwilling to admit that someone who disagrees with their moral positions, is not wrong in any objective sense.


You seem to live a two dimensional world.
All these atheists you claim to have experience with and your particular brand of your vast, multidimensional cult system.
You actually talk about what atheists think and say more than you do about what Christians think and why they think what they think.
I think you sound like a bitter old man. Tongue

ALL RED CAPS HOWEVER ARE COOL.
THO FETHTIVE.
WAS IT MORAL FOR GOD TO PUT A "S" IN THE WORD LISP ?

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10-12-2014, 10:04 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
The Red caps was to avoid what happened in the other thread where people thought I was advocating eating babies or something.

"A witty quote means nothing"
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10-12-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 09:53 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You seem to live a two dimensional world.

The two dimensional world, is just one of a logical impossibility, that immorality can't be relative, and non-relative, objective, and subjective, anymore so than good and bad music, food, or fashion can be.

This gulf is not crossed by creating a scale either.
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10-12-2014, 10:36 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 10:23 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-12-2014 09:53 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You seem to live a two dimensional world.

The two dimensional world, is just one of a logical impossibility, that immorality can't be relative, and non-relative, objective, and subjective, anymore so than good and bad music, food, or fashion can be.

This gulf is not crossed by creating a scale either.

Every "moral decision" is passed through and interpreted by human brains.
Is "taking a human life" immoral ?
Yes sometimes, no other times. Humans make moral judgments all the time.
Religionists argue all the time about what circumstances constitute a justification for "taking a life". What you consider immoral, what I consider immoral, and what other atheists and religionists consider immoral are TOTALLY relative to what goes on our brains.

So no. You are totally wrong.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-12-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 09:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-12-2014 09:30 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  2) why do you want to debate something everyone agrees with you on? Where are you going to find an atheist who believes in objective morality?

Well, it's been my experience that atheists tend to appeal to an objective morality all the time. They seem unwilling to admit that someone who disagrees with their moral positions, is not wrong in any objective sense.

And Christians don't?

Pffft... hell... I see this in my church right now with the complete retardedness of whether or not a Christmas tree is "Godly".

This isn't an "atheist" or "Christian" thing. This is a human thing.

People will appeal to what gives them clout and to what they believe is right based on their environment and their understanding. It's a basic function of a society. It's not "wrong" per se; however, it's not "right" either.

It just is. It's neutral.

[rant below; unrelated to above post]

Perceived objectiveness comes from indoctrination and adoption and inception of societal norms... this is no way objective, though. I mean, something that changes based on society, time, and perceived importance, cannot, by its very definition, be objective. It's wholly subjective. It will always be subjective.

Until all peoples adopt a universal, unchanging morality, you can never call morality objective.

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10-12-2014, 10:53 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 10:36 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-12-2014 10:23 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The two dimensional world, is just one of a logical impossibility, that immorality can't be relative, and non-relative, objective, and subjective, anymore so than good and bad music, food, or fashion can be.

This gulf is not crossed by creating a scale either.

Every "moral decision" is passed through and interpreted by human brains.
Is "taking a human life" immoral ?
Yes sometimes, no other times. Humans make moral judgments all the time.
Religionists argue all the time about what circumstances constitute a justification for "taking a life". What you consider immoral, what I consider immoral, and what other atheists and religionists consider immoral are TOTALLY relative to what goes on our brains.

So no. You are totally wrong.

Can the same be said about pretty much every other subjective judgement, like for good and bad music?

i.e.

Every descision of whether a particular form of music is good or bad is passed through and interpreted by human brains.

Is "country music" bad ?
Yes sometimes, no other times. Humans make music judgments all the time.
Critics argue all the time about what circumstances make a song good. What you consider bad music, what I consider music good , and what other folks and country music enthusiasist consider good music are TOTALLY relative to what goes on our brains.

Also, I don't see how anything you've said is an arguments against moral relativism.
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10-12-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 09:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Can the same be said about pretty much every other subjective judgement, like for good and bad music?
i.e.
Every descision of whether a particular form of music is good or bad is passed through and interpreted by human brains.

Is "country music" bad ?
Yes sometimes, no other times. Humans make music judgments all the time.
Critics argue all the time about what circumstances make a song good. What you consider bad music, what I consider music good , and what other folks and country music enthusiasist consider good music are TOTALLY relative to what goes on our brains.

Also, I don't see how anything you've said is an arguments against moral relativism.

Are you feeling OK ? I'm starting to worry.
We're not talking about the "fallacy of subjective judgments", we're talking about why OBJECTIVE morality (judgment) is not a valid concept.
Thus your question is irrelevant. (But the answer to it is "yes"). Morals and "tastes" are not the same, BTW. Whether I murder someone, or insult someone who is hurt by that and asks me to stop, or listen to country music BY MYSELF, are totally different matters. In order to make a moral judgment, brain processes which require re-created memories are involved. There is nothing "objective" about that, or ever could be.

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10-12-2014, 11:33 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 09:38 AM)tear151 Wrote:  Matt dillahunt argued that ethical systems can be objectively better than others.

What I've heard him argue is that given a standard to measure against you can rate ethical/moral systems objectively against that standard.

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10-12-2014, 11:44 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 11:33 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(10-12-2014 09:38 AM)tear151 Wrote:  Matt dillahunt argued that ethical systems can be objectively better than others.

What I've heard him argue is that given a standard to measure against you can rate ethical/moral systems objectively against that standard.

Indeed so.

He is OK with objective morality.

This is because he has adopted 'well-being' as his measurement scale / axiology.

I would argue, and often do, that a better way of phrasing this position is that morality is ALWAYS subjective yet can be judged as objective ONLY WHEN an axiology is assumed.

Smartass

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