Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
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10-12-2014, 11:50 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 10:46 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  And Christians don't?

Pffft... hell... I see this in my church right now with the complete retardedness of whether or not a Christmas tree is "Godly".

But even here, the argument is appealing to a supposed external reality, that's binding all those having that argument, that they have obligation to do what is Godly. That the standard of life, how they should live an act, should be directed in the way God desires of them. That no matter on which side the party stands, they are all appealing to some supposed objective reality, in which what is right and what is wrong stem from>

From the perspective of believer, the claim would be God desires, or is fine with us having a christmas tree, or that he is not fine with this. Or as far as the tree is concerned none of can determine either way whether good will approve of this, so we're left on out own.

The choice, is not matter, of just deciding if what picture to put over our mantel. At the end of the day it's question of what God desires (godly).

As far as the tree is concerned here may not be an answer, but yet all believers, christian, muslim, jew, hindu or otherwise, believes that God desires Justice, love for our neighbor, to take care of the orphans and widow, the poor, etc...And all believers view this as a duty, even Isis.

Believers of all sorts may create all sorts of self-justifying schemes for deplorable actions, like lawyers looking for loop holes, but the fact they have to justify themselves with something external to them, is the point.


Quote:Perceived objectiveness comes from indoctrination and adoption and inception of societal norms... this is no way objective, though. I mean, something that changes based on society, time, and perceived importance, cannot, by its very definition, be objective. It's wholly subjective. It will always be subjective.

Paul observed the gentiles following the moral law, event though they had no book. If morality is subjective that there is no such as a moral law, no such as right or wrong, in any true of meaningful sense, just personal opinion.

I would like to say more, but i've run out of time.
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10-12-2014, 12:12 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 11:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But i've run out of time.

There is a god. Halleluiah. Amen.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-12-2014, 12:49 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 11:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  From the perspective of believer, the claim would be God desires, or is fine with us having a christmas tree, or that he is not fine with this. Or as far as the tree is concerned none of can determine either way whether good will approve of this, so we're left on out own.

Bro the christmas tree is a representation of a penis. People let kids put something on the tip of what was once a penis representation.

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10-12-2014, 01:02 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 12:49 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(10-12-2014 11:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  From the perspective of believer, the claim would be God desires, or is fine with us having a christmas tree, or that he is not fine with this. Or as far as the tree is concerned none of can determine either way whether good will approve of this, so we're left on out own.

Bro the christmas tree is a representation of a penis. People let kids put something on the tip of what was once a penis representation.

... It was the good ship Yippee
By God we were so hippee
The figure-lady was in negligee
Astride a rampant Christmas tree...

Doesn't quite scan the same Undecided

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-12-2014, 01:04 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 11:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  From the perspective of believer, the claim would be God desires, or is fine with us having a christmas tree, or that he is not fine with this. Or as far as the tree is concerned none of can determine either way whether good will approve of this, so we're left on out own.

The choice, is not matter, of just deciding if what picture to put over our mantel. At the end of the day it's question of what God desires (godly).

As far as the tree is concerned here may not be an answer, but yet all believers, christian, muslim, jew, hindu or otherwise, believes that God desires Justice, love for our neighbor, to take care of the orphans and widow, the poor, etc...And all believers view this as a duty, even Isis.

Believers of all sorts may create all sorts of self-justifying schemes for deplorable actions, like lawyers looking for loop holes, but the fact they have to justify themselves with something external to them, is the point.

I am with Bucky, me thinks you are not feeling quite right. You appear to waffle back and forth on what you describe as objective moral code. The problem is that what each believer's view on what their personal god desires is different, of their opinion, and completely subjective. You must be able to see that or be unable to think outside of your own little bubble.

The comment about ISIS having the duty of taking care of widows and the poor is just not worthy of any further response as you may be too far gone to understand your comments critically.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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10-12-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 09:29 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(10-12-2014 09:24 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Well, not necessarily. People play the devil's advocate in debates all the time.

Yes, but I only see the point of playing "to win" if its a "duel"

The point of playing there is to expand minds and allow of people to view contrasting ideas. It's not just the debate club idea of wanting to win a competition.

Like I stated in another thread about this, before it has already been opened to various discussion points. I could argue how to reach Objective morality through forming specific judgement following some theories like Moral Foundations theory to define what criteria of morals we are discussing; but it doesn't make something I think anyone should implement, because we are mere beings who can't tell future outcomes.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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10-12-2014, 01:20 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 01:02 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-12-2014 12:49 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Bro the christmas tree is a representation of a penis. People let kids put something on the tip of what was once a penis representation.

... It was the good ship Yippee
By God we were so hippee
The figure-lady was in negligee
Astride a rampant Christmas tree...

Doesn't quite scan the same Undecided

Well now it is explaining that she wants the D.

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10-12-2014, 02:14 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
This is more because I'm considering calling into the atheist experience to challenge Matt on his moral objectivism, I want to get my facts straight first in a more "Local" setting first. Just thinking it might be nice for someone to call into that show who knows what they are talking about for a change lol and doing something other than trying to prove god to them.

"A witty quote means nothing"
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10-12-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 02:14 PM)tear151 Wrote:  This is more because I'm considering calling into the atheist experience to challenge Matt on his moral objectivism, I want to get my facts straight first in a more "Local" setting first. Just thinking it might be nice for someone to call into that show who knows what they are talking about for a change lol and doing something other than trying to prove god to them.

They prefer to have discussions on God and people trying to talk about it. It's more to the point of the show. Matt will probably direct you to videos of his debates or in the luckiest bit, tell you to email the show in intention of discussing it with him.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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10-12-2014, 02:24 PM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(10-12-2014 02:14 PM)tear151 Wrote:  This is more because I'm considering calling into the atheist experience to challenge Matt on his moral objectivism, I want to get my facts straight first in a more "Local" setting first. Just thinking it might be nice for someone to call into that show who knows what they are talking about for a change lol and doing something other than trying to prove god to them.

Here's a post where he outlines his position

Quote:It is trivial to construct a secular moral system beginning with very simple foundational principles (life is generally preferable to death, etc) and evaluate the consequences of actions with respect to those principles.

The particular foundational principles used as the basis are not objective.

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