Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
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12-12-2014, 08:06 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 07:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-12-2014 07:09 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Genuine question: How would the existence of a god make morals objective? Or make moral "laws" a thing?

It would imply that human life has some sort of moral direction, some sort of purpose and meaning. In essence you would speaking of human life as if it posses the qualities of narratives, and stories. We could always continue living our lives talking solely about the story, while others will acknowledge that stories have authors.

You haven't answered the question:
How does the existence of a deity whom holds a non-human perspective make that perspective objective?

If that deity is in someway objective (big if) and did create us in a manner that gave rise to the feelings/ instincts/ whatever that shapes our understanding of what is moral. How would behaving in accordance with those morals be a "law?" Or an objective one if we're behaving in that manner because of that deity's preferences?

In reference to what you actually wrote: (Rather than what you very carefully did not write.)
Why would behaving in a way that is in accordance with the deities wishes be a purpose if behaving in a way that is in accordance with another persons wishes is not a purpose?

Tangentally related to the above:
How then would heaven be an end goal if all that is there is more living in accordance with the deities wishes?

Why would any meaning derived from that life be any more important, any more meaningful, than a life without that deity?

(11-12-2014 08:03 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(11-12-2014 07:09 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Genuine question: How would the existence of a god make morals objective? Or make moral "laws" a thing?

Even if those things are a part of that gods makeup then that still wouldn't make them "objective" or fundamentally different than the values that we, near universally, hold. (Baby in pain = Bad. Me in pain = Bad. Food = Good.)

blah blah blah... some kind of universal meaning and definitive structure of things mattering. I guess it's like that.

You're future psychic.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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12-12-2014, 08:43 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 06:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-12-2014 10:02 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Let me let you in on a little secret Tomasia. If tomorrow you shed the manacles of Christianity you would still feel pangs of guilt for being an ass to your fellow human beings.

Do you feel guilty when you don't go to church on Sunday?

I'm sure if you were once a believer there's probably plenty of thing you might have felt guilty about, because your religion viewed those things as wrong, and if you left this religious worldview, and acquired one where these things are no longer seen as wrong, then you perhaps you can see why the guilt becomes lost?

The church example is simply having to do with dogma, not the topic here.

What I’m referring to is being an “ass” as you say. We here like to think of it as “Not being a Dick”. I have a motto I like to live by, “A clear conscience is the softest pillow”.

Whatever I have been taught by my parents and society regarding the treatment of others holds just as true today as an atheist as it did when I believed in the whole carrot and stick schtick.

Carrot and stick schtick...I so entertain myself.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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12-12-2014, 09:07 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 08:06 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  ]You haven't answered the question:
How does the existence of a deity whom holds a non-human perspective make that perspective objective?

I’m not to sure what it is you’re asking.

Quote:How would behaving in accordance with those morals be a "law?

Well, it presupposes that we have inherent moral obligation, such as to love our neighbor as ourself, just by being human. It’s seen as a law in the sense, that it’s a law that police officers have an obligation to protect and serve, just by being police officers. If i were to see a woman being raped, even though I’d be compelled by my emotions to stop it, there exists beliefs that underlying these feelings as well, that I have an moral obligation to stop it, and if I don’t then I failed in these obligations, that I’ve transgressed some sort of law, of being human, that I failed in my humanity. In fact from this point of reference I would accuse others who didn’t come to the woman’s aid, of failing in the same ways.

Quote:Or an objective one if we're behaving in that manner because of that deity's preferences?

What I mean by objective, is that I am making a statement of fact, when making claims of what is morally wrong or right, rather than a statement of opinion, such I like Taylor swift (for which there is no right or wrong). I am presupposing some sort of reality about human beings, having an intrinsic purpose, which they are called to serve.

Quote:Why would behaving in a way that is in accordance with the deities wishes be a purpose if behaving in a way that is in accordance with another persons wishes is not a purpose?

It could be, such as if I signed up to be a police officer. It can be said that my purpose as a police officer is to fulfill the wishes of those that assigned me that role. It can be said that I failed, or lived up to my obligations as a police officer. For believers, it can be said that God by giving us life, by making us human, makes us obligated to fulfill the moral roles and purposes of what that means, to be able to live our lives as profoundly and meaningfully as possible.

Quote:How then would heaven be an end goal if all that is there is more living in accordance with the deities wishes?

How would it not be?

Quote:Why would any meaning derived from that life be any more important, any more meaningful, than a life without that deity?

I wouldn’t know how to answer that question for you, because to me God is that life, “I am the way the truth, and the life”.
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12-12-2014, 09:14 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 08:43 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 06:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Do you feel guilty when you don't go to church on Sunday?

I'm sure if you were once a believer there's probably plenty of thing you might have felt guilty about, because your religion viewed those things as wrong, and if you left this religious worldview, and acquired one where these things are no longer seen as wrong, then you perhaps you can see why the guilt becomes lost?

The church example is simply having to do with dogma, not the topic here.

What I’m referring to is being an “ass” as you say. We here like to think of it as “Not being a Dick”. I have a motto I like to live by, “A clear conscience is the softest pillow”.

Whatever I have been taught by my parents and society regarding the treatment of others holds just as true today as an atheist as it did when I believed in the whole carrot and stick schtick.

Why is being an ass "wrong", because you've been told that it is by your parents and your society? Or because you conscious reveals it as wrong, that it won't let you sleep as well at night, if you behave like a dick, if you don't live morally?
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12-12-2014, 09:29 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 09:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 08:43 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  The church example is simply having to do with dogma, not the topic here.

What I’m referring to is being an “ass” as you say. We here like to think of it as “Not being a Dick”. I have a motto I like to live by, “A clear conscience is the softest pillow”.

Whatever I have been taught by my parents and society regarding the treatment of others holds just as true today as an atheist as it did when I believed in the whole carrot and stick schtick.

Why is being an ass "wrong", because you've been told that it is by your parents and your society? Or because you conscious reveals it as wrong, that it won't let you sleep as well at night, if you behave like a dick, if you don't live morally?

It's called empathy and has been explained too many times for you to be pulling the morality crap again. Drinking Beverage

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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12-12-2014, 10:19 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 09:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 08:43 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  The church example is simply having to do with dogma, not the topic here.

What I’m referring to is being an “ass” as you say. We here like to think of it as “Not being a Dick”. I have a motto I like to live by, “A clear conscience is the softest pillow”.

Whatever I have been taught by my parents and society regarding the treatment of others holds just as true today as an atheist as it did when I believed in the whole carrot and stick schtick.

Why is being an ass "wrong", because you've been told that it is by your parents and your society? Or because you conscious reveals it as wrong, that it won't let you sleep as well at night, if you behave like a dick, if you don't live morally?


Your argument applies as well to whatever teachings you hold as true taught to you by your own religion (and yes both yours and mine are subjective).

The point I am countering is your statement that, and here I'm paraphrasing, that you wouldn't feel like an asshole for doing X if you didn't have religion. My contention is that yes, yes you would still feel like an ass for doing X even if tomorrow you stopped believing in god. Acquired morals aren't switched off when a person deconverts from being a believer to being a non-believer.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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12-12-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 09:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I’m not to* sure what it is you’re asking.

*too

(12-12-2014 09:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Well, it presupposes that we have inherent moral obligation, such as to love our neighbor as ourself, just by being human. It’s seen as a law in the sense, that it’s a law that police officers have an obligation to protect and serve, just by being police officers. If i were to see a woman being raped, even though I’d be compelled by my emotions to stop it, there exists beliefs that underlying these feelings as well, that I have an moral obligation to stop it, and if I don’t then I failed in these obligations, that I’ve transgressed some sort of law, of being human, that I failed in my humanity. In fact from this point of reference I would accuse others who didn’t come to the woman’s aid, of failing in the same ways.

Learned culturally relative customs.
The god of the Bible approved the opposite.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sa...limits.htm

(12-12-2014 09:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What I mean by objective, is that I am making a statement of fact, when making claims of what is morally wrong or right, rather than a statement of opinion, such I like Taylor swift (for which there is no right or wrong). I am presupposing some sort of reality about human beings, having an intrinsic purpose, which they are called to serve.

Claiming that opinions are facts does not make them so. Attempting to redefine your opinions as facts in a lame attempt to try to elevate opinions to factual status just shows how bankrupt your notions of all this are.

Jebus was not the first or only figure who it was claimed made the statement "I am the way the truth and the life". Horus said it before him, and so did Mithra. Take a class sometime.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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12-12-2014, 11:15 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 09:29 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  It's called empathy and has been explained too many times for you to be pulling the morality crap again.

Well, internet dickishness is almost a way of life, so common in forums, and youtube comments that it appears as if it's the norm. Much of this has to do with our anonymity, and the fact that we're dealing with people behind computer screens, rather than in the flesh.

I guess we could say this sort of dickishness is us not acting empathetically, not acting in a loving or compassionate sort of way to our fellow human beings, acting in ways that are contrary to this.

Then the guilt that supposedly follows along after behaving as such is what then? A guilt for not behaving empathetically, as we ought have?
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12-12-2014, 11:22 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 10:19 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  The point I am countering is your statement that, and here I'm paraphrasing, that you wouldn't feel like an asshole for doing X if you didn't have religion. My contention is that yes, yes you would still feel like an ass for doing X even if tomorrow you stopped believing in god. Acquired morals aren't switched off when a person deconverts from being a believer to being a non-believer.

Yet, it seems to be true that acquired morals, such as masterbation is wrong, sex before marriage is wrong, watching pornography is wrong, get turned off when a person deconverts. You'd be hard pressed to find unbelievers who think these things are wrong.

Why do these wrongs get turned off, but the wrongness of dickishness does not?
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12-12-2014, 11:23 AM
RE: Open challenge: Prove the existence of objective moral laws in a godless world
(12-12-2014 11:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 09:29 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  It's called empathy and has been explained too many times for you to be pulling the morality crap again.

Well, internet dickishness is almost a way of life, so common in forums, and youtube comments that it appears as if it's the norm. Much of this has to do with our anonymity, and the fact that we're dealing with people behind computer screens, rather than in the flesh.

I guess we could say this sort of dickishness is us not acting empathetically, not acting in a loving or compassionate sort of way to our fellow human beings, acting in ways that are contrary to this.

Then the guilt that supposedly follows along after behaving as such is what then? A guilt for not behaving empathetically, as we ought have?

So you're feeling guilty about being a dick to KC ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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