Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
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08-08-2016, 01:02 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(01-08-2016 06:39 AM)ukatheist Wrote:  Ok, so I haven''t actually seen the film, but from wiki it appears that the ship isn't actually HAL's body, but a machine that is controlled by HAL. So the analogy is closer to, say, a human driving a car (does that human have a right to eject a passenger from the car if they insist on travelling to a different location to the driver) rather than abortion and the whole 'my body my choice' argument.

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Isn't the human body just a biological machine controlled by a human mind? The ship is how HAL navigates this world just as our bodies are how we navigate the world.

Now you can argue that machines have no human rights because they aren't human(as other(s) have done), but I don't think that inconsequential detail would stop an AI from ejecting humans into space if that AI bought into the "My Body My Choice argument".
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08-08-2016, 01:21 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
The human mind is also the result of a biological machine. You can't have a mind without a body or a brain.
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08-08-2016, 01:25 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(08-08-2016 01:21 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  The human mind is also the result of a biological machine. You can't have a mind without a body or a brain.

Hal in just a mechanical mind occupying a mechanical body just as you are a human mind occupying a human body.
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08-08-2016, 01:30 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
Apparently, he missed my previous reply, or wants to pretend it's not there.

Some rights trump other rights. If we grant an AI/ship the same rights as a human being, then yes it could certainly be within its rights to eject the crew from the ship, if it did not want other beings invading its body. To presume otherwise would be to deny the equal rights/dignity of the AI-which-we-granted-equal rights.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-08-2016, 01:33 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(08-08-2016 01:30 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Apparently, he missed my previous reply, or wants to pretend it's not there.

Some rights trump other rights. If we grant an AI/ship the same rights as a human being, then yes it could certainly be within its rights to eject the crew from the ship, if it did not want other beings invading its body. To presume otherwise would be to deny the equal rights/dignity of the AI-which-we-granted-equal rights.

So abortion rights are granted rights. Right? If society deems women shouldn't be allowed to abort, are you okay with that? Lets say everyone votes and the vast majority vote to rescind abortion rights. Even though you might have a differing opinion on the matter, you would respect the collective decision?
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08-08-2016, 01:36 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
Facepalm

Frusty
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08-08-2016, 01:42 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(08-08-2016 01:30 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Apparently, he missed my previous reply, or wants to pretend it's not there.

Some rights trump other rights. If we grant an AI/ship the same rights as a human being, then yes it could certainly be within its rights to eject the crew from the ship, if it did not want other beings invading its body. To presume otherwise would be to deny the equal rights/dignity of the AI-which-we-granted-equal rights.

I actually respect your opinion here more than others, because even though I disagree with it, I think you have been consistent. Ones moral code should be consistent even if it leads to undesirable consequences in my opinion.

I didn't respond to your post because I don't have a response to "I accept the my body my choice argument even if it means Hal can be justified in ejecting me into space because my occupying his body is an inconvenience to him".....which is what I think you are saying.
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08-08-2016, 01:50 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(08-08-2016 01:33 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  So abortion rights are granted rights. Right? If society deems women shouldn't be allowed to abort, are you okay with that? Lets say everyone votes and the vast majority vote to rescind abortion rights. Even though you might have a differing opinion on the matter, you would respect the collective decision?

(08-08-2016 01:33 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I didn't respond to your post because I don't have a response to "I accept the my body my choice argument even if it means Hal can be justified in ejecting me into space because my occupying his body is an inconvenience to him".....which is what I think you are saying.

All rights are granted rights. There is not actually such a thing as a "natural right", regardless of the prose of the writers of the Declaration/Constitution.

And no, I'm not "okay with that" because it violates one of the most fundamental principles of liberty in which I believe, which is the right to absolute bodily integrity.

In order to violate the AI (in your analogy) or a woman's right to control one's own body, we would have to declare universally that they are not equal to other citizens in other situations, which is something I consider a far worse problem than the deaths of the crew and/or the fetuses.

So if, for the purpose of your thought-experiment, we grant an AI the absolute equal rights of a citizen, then yes, they would be within their rights to say that no humans could live aboard their body without permission. What I'd like to ask you is what right do the humans have to be there against the will of their host?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-08-2016, 02:07 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(08-08-2016 01:50 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  What I'd like to ask you is what right do the humans have to be there against the will of their host?

Its teleological. The AI ship exists to sustain a human being(s). Any human beings that find themselves inside the AI ship have a right to be there or at least not ejected into space by the AI. The uterus exists to sustain a human being(s). Any human beings that find themselves inside the uterus being sustained by it have a right to be there.

I think the unconscious violinist argument fails because the purpose of your body isn't to sustain the existence of the violinist sown on to you.
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08-08-2016, 02:14 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
Except, you're equivocating terms again Heywood.
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