Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
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10-08-2016, 04:28 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(10-08-2016 04:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  When you are under general anesthesia you are not a person but rather just a collection of cells on an operating table.

I take it you're not a medical practitioner then......................?

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10-08-2016, 04:33 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(10-08-2016 04:26 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  If it is so self evident, you should be able to justify why a fertilized chicken egg is not the same organism as the hen that lays it. If you refuse to provide a justification then I shall accuse you of being disingenuous.

The egg and the hen are two individual beings. Individual organisms are continuous. I should not have to explain this to a bio-informatician.
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10-08-2016, 04:35 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(10-08-2016 04:28 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  
(10-08-2016 04:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  When you are under general anesthesia you are not a person but rather just a collection of cells on an operating table.

I take it you're not a medical practitioner then......................?

You are not a person at that moment. At that moment you are a lump of meat.
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10-08-2016, 04:42 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(10-08-2016 04:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(10-08-2016 04:06 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Why should it be morally wrong that we kill a fertilised egg? It has no central nervous system. It has no ability to feel pain, capacity to suffer or conscious awareness.

In the movie 2001 an Space Odyssey, Hal kills off the scientist that are frozen in their pods. In the state in which they were killed, they had no working nervous system, no capacity to feel pain or conscious awareness. Does that fact justify Hal's actions?

Equivocation. Justify to whom?


(10-08-2016 04:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Personhood is transitory. When you are under general anesthesia you are not a person but rather just a collection of cells on an operating table. Because personhood is so transitory it is not a good delineation of what deserves protection and what doesn't. I believe there are stages of sleep under which a human being ceases to have the qualities of a person....yet I believe they should be morally protected.

I had to take wider view when formulating my morality which is why I chose human being instead of person.

So you have decided by yourself on an arbitrary definition, that a collection of cells has to be part of the human life cycle for it to be protected, but only from the point of conception. Sperm and unfertilised eggs don't count even though they are part of the human life cycle. This arbitrary definition means that you need not protect other cells that are not part of the human life cycle. For example, an entire clone of a human being because it was not part of the human life cycle.

Your arbitrary definition also means that you cannot answer the following questions:

(10-08-2016 04:06 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Is this equal to murdering a fully developed adult? Why? Or why not? How is this different to taking a human off life support who has irrevocable brain damage and will never wake up? Is that murder? Is this different from killing a baby born with no brain?

How do you justify your arbitrary definition that a human being is part of a human life cycle but specifically starts at conception over any other definition of what constitutes a human being?
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10-08-2016, 04:53 AM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2016 05:18 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(10-08-2016 04:33 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(10-08-2016 04:26 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  If it is so self evident, you should be able to justify why a fertilized chicken egg is not the same organism as the hen that lays it. If you refuse to provide a justification then I shall accuse you of being disingenuous.

The egg and the hen are two individual beings. Individual organisms are continuous. I should not have to explain this to a bio-informatician.

So the egg and the hen are two individual beings. They are separated by distance and a hard shell. Yet a foetus inside a woman is not an individual, it will die if removed from the mother. It is entirely dependent on the mother for nutrients. There is no hard delineation between the foetus and the mother. In fact some foetal cells can migrate from the foetus to the mother.

This shows that your definition of a human being starting at conception as being at odds with your definition of a human also being an individual organism.
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10-08-2016, 04:55 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(10-08-2016 04:35 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(10-08-2016 04:28 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  I take it you're not a medical practitioner then......................?

You are not a person at that moment. At that moment you are a lump of meat.

Wrong. The brain is still active when you are under anaesthetic. If it wasn't the case then there would be brain damage within minutes.
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10-08-2016, 05:25 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(10-08-2016 04:35 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(10-08-2016 04:28 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  I take it you're not a medical practitioner then......................?

You are not a person at that moment. At that moment you are a lump of meat.

I think this answer demonstrates that your understanding of biology is woefully undeveloped. If I were you I'd quit now before you make an even bigger ass of yourself. Drinking Beverage

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10-08-2016, 05:37 AM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2016 05:52 AM by Fatbaldhobbit.)
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(10-08-2016 02:46 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  An embryo is an organism unto itself.

An organism whose needs and rights are secondary to those of the mother.

(10-08-2016 02:46 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I'm on good ground by calling people morons who deny that human beings have life cycles which include an embryonic/fetal stages.

On the contrary, if you wish to have a civil discussion then you refrain from name calling. Most of us learned this in elementary school.

However, if that's the way you want to play this, then fine. Drinking Beverage

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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10-08-2016, 05:50 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(10-08-2016 04:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Personhood is transitory.

Holy fucking shit. The absolute stupidity of your comment is simply amazing.

Consciousness is transitory, dumbass.

(10-08-2016 04:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  When you are under general anesthesia you are not a person but rather just a collection of cells on an operating table.

Then in the womb an embryo is a collection of cells, not a person.

(10-08-2016 04:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Because personhood is so transitory it is not a good delineation of what deserves protection and what doesn't. I believe there are stages of sleep under which a human being ceases to have the qualities of a person....yet I believe they should be morally protected.

Shocking This is so fucking stupid that I can't even frame a response.

(10-08-2016 04:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I had to take wider view when formulating my morality which is why I chose human being instead of person.

You call people here morons and then you post this shit?

Fuck. My brain hurts so bad.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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10-08-2016, 05:51 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(10-08-2016 02:37 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  An embryo is not infringing upon the rights of the mother by taking up residence in the uterus.

An embryo does not "take up residence".

An embryo is a parasitic organism that develops in the uterus. It is a separate entity from the parents, including the mother.

While the embryo can be considered a human being, it's needs/rights are considered secondary to those of the mother.

(10-08-2016 02:37 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  A human crew is not infringing upon the rights of an AI ship by taking up residence within it.

As pointed out by myself and others, your analogy has failed in a variety of ways. The fact that you are unable or unwilling to grasp this concept.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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