Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
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17-08-2016, 02:24 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(28-07-2016 04:22 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  My question is does the United States Constitution grant a computer like Hal the right to kill the human beings that inhabit its body? Obviously I am questioning the validity of the "my body my choice argument".

Does your answer change if those humans, as in the case of the humans in the movie, threaten the life of the sentient machine?

Rights are granted to persons. They're not granted to other animals, much less machines.

Short answer: no.
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17-08-2016, 02:28 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(17-08-2016 02:24 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(28-07-2016 04:22 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  My question is does the United States Constitution grant a computer like Hal the right to kill the human beings that inhabit its body? Obviously I am questioning the validity of the "my body my choice argument".

Does your answer change if those humans, as in the case of the humans in the movie, threaten the life of the sentient machine?

Rights are granted to persons. They're not granted to other animals, much less machines.

Short answer: no.

You are a biological machine so I guess you have no rights.
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17-08-2016, 02:34 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(17-08-2016 02:28 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(17-08-2016 02:24 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Rights are granted to persons. They're not granted to other animals, much less machines.

Short answer: no.

You are a biological machine so I guess you have no rights.

None of us have any rights that aren't granted to one another.

You're getting it, kid. Baby steps ... baby steps.
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17-08-2016, 05:34 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(17-08-2016 02:28 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(17-08-2016 02:24 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Rights are granted to persons. They're not granted to other animals, much less machines.

Short answer: no.

You are a biological machine so I guess you have no rights.

Your guess would be wrong. Drinking Beverage

Redefining words to fit your argument is a logical fallacy.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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17-08-2016, 05:40 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(11-08-2016 11:36 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(11-08-2016 11:32 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  That would depend on perspective. From my perspective that would be a fate worse than death. Also Lou Gehrig's disease (or at least the end stage of) would be worse than death. I know and have known for about the last 35 or more years what it is like to be able to walk, talk, feed myself, dress myself (albeit for less time), and do other things. If you are not only born without those abilities and will/can never have those abilities, your perspective would be different. Just like a kid with cancer is not brave for going through it. They are just forced to live with it and it is all they have known. Most don't even have a choice in whether or not to fight it, depending on age. They are forced by their parents. It is after all their body, they should have a choice. Should they not?

The same argument folks use to justify the keeping of caged birds and yes competent youngsters should have the choice.

If competent youngsters should have a choice, why are they also not given a choice in other aspects. Such as drastically altering genitalia on day 2 of life. The whole my body my choice argument completely falls apart if the person is a child. If the voting age were age 2 days, the kid would have a say as well. The only reason the argument exists about whether or not abortions should happen is that women can vote. Not that I am against abortions.
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17-08-2016, 05:41 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
I can see Blowjob's point, regarding a ship's AI that has (for the purpose of this thought experiment) become sentient enough to have the entire ship be considered a "person" in the same light that we think of ourselves and other humans as persons. If we grant the AI is intelligent enough to qualify as a person, with the rights we grant ourselves as persons, the crew would thus be guests aboard the "body" of that AI person. After that, we diverge completely.

I have argued that the guests aboard the body of the ship have no inherent right to be there without the express permission of the ship. To force an AI to carry people against its will would be a slave, an unconscionable act on the part of society. Indeed, forcing AI robots of various kinds to become slaves to humanity is the plot-basis for a large volume of sci-fi works.

The "person-ship" must be either given the right to keep people from ever getting aboard (analogous to perfect and freely-available birth control) or the right to expel those who are aboard without permission. If the ship chooses to carry a crew, for its own reasons and no one else's, then it should by all means do so.

This argument treats all persons involved, ship and crew, as equals with regard to their rights, which is why I am using it as a way to grant the position of Blowjob that fetuses are full humans, rather than pointing out that medically (as opposed to rhetorically and/or emotionally), they are not yet human but only human beings in potentia. I am all too aware that no one on the Pro-Life side will ever grant the grey-area distinction of at what point we can/should call an embryo a human being, with accompanying rights, so I just skip it by granting "even if what you say is true..." and pointing out the actual rights that are under discussion.

The only "rights" that are in question here are the right of a person (including a smart ship) to not have its body invaded without its permission, being slavery. You can call it murder all you like, but the simple fact is there is no "right to life" for people without brain function, or else we would never be able to "pull the plug" on the comatose.

I happen to draw the distinction for embryonic development at the point we can consider them to have brain function beyond the automatic-reactionary, after which a pregnancy can only be terminated if the health of the mother is in danger (as I have already pointed out elsewhere, you have no right to endanger my health to preserve yours)... which happens to be the current state of the law, requiring three doctors to sign off on the necessity of a late-term abortion.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-08-2016, 05:59 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(17-08-2016 05:41 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The only "rights" that are in question here are the right of a person (including a smart ship) to not have its body invaded without its permission, being slavery. You can call it murder all you like, but the simple fact is there is no "right to life" for people without brain function, or else we would never be able to "pull the plug" on the comatose.

I tend to feel that if you are raped, then your body is being invaded against your will. The problem is that there are slutty women out there that will go to the local gang bang and when they get pregnant, they expect to get an abortion. Since they will more than likely be bad parents, I encourage an abortion. I do have a problem with women that were taught just like we all were in grade school how reproduction works and decide to fuck without any protection, then get pissed off when they get pregnant (some multiple times).
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17-08-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(17-08-2016 05:59 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(17-08-2016 05:41 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The only "rights" that are in question here are the right of a person (including a smart ship) to not have its body invaded without its permission, being slavery. You can call it murder all you like, but the simple fact is there is no "right to life" for people without brain function, or else we would never be able to "pull the plug" on the comatose.

I tend to feel that if you are raped, then your body is being invaded against your will. The problem is that there are slutty women out there that will go to the local gang bang and when they get pregnant, they expect to get an abortion. Since they will more than likely be bad parents, I encourage an abortion. I do have a problem with women that were taught just like we all were in grade school how reproduction works and decide to fuck without any protection, then get pissed off when they get pregnant (some multiple times).

I certainly agree with you that abortions should not be used as some kind of routine retro active contraception but you will encounter feckless individuals of both sexes in all societies as you say,thankfully though they are in the minority.
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17-08-2016, 12:47 PM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(17-08-2016 05:41 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The only "rights" that are in question here are the right of a person (including a smart ship) to not have its body invaded without its permission, being slavery. You can call it murder all you like, but the simple fact is there is no "right to life" for people without brain function, or else we would never be able to "pull the plug" on the comatose.

When you pull the plug on a brain dead person you do not kill them. You withdraw the life support you were giving that body and it dies naturally. In abortion you are cutting that human being up and sucking it out. You are actively killing it. There is a difference.
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17-08-2016, 12:51 PM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(17-08-2016 05:59 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  I tend to feel that if you are raped, then your body is being invaded against your will. The problem is that there are slutty women out there that will go to the local gang bang and when they get pregnant, they expect to get an abortion. Since they will more than likely be bad parents, I encourage an abortion. I do have a problem with women that were taught just like we all were in grade school how reproduction works and decide to fuck without any protection, then get pissed off when they get pregnant (some multiple times).

If being a bad parent is justification for killing a human being then wouldn't it be okay to kill all the 1 year olds if their parents are bad?

If the unborn deserve no moral protection the motivation behind the abortion is just an extraneous detail.
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