Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
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28-07-2016, 07:54 PM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(28-07-2016 07:32 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-07-2016 07:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  No one has made that argument. A first semester fetus is not a human being, so your argument is a failure.

Its trimester not semester you twit.

And it is a human being. You can open a biology text and study the life cycle of a human being. Arguing that a fetus is not a human being is like arguing the world is flat. I'm not going to waste my time with that level of stupidity.

A clot of cells is not a human being. It may develop into one, but it isn't one until it has a nervous system and a brain.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-07-2016, 07:56 PM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(28-07-2016 07:43 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-07-2016 07:41 PM)pablo Wrote:  Are you really arguing that since a fictional computer, in a fictional story, killing a fictional grown person is wrong, then a real abortion of a fetus is exactly the same?
Facepalm

I am arguing that justifying real abortion with "Its my body and therefore it is my choice" is moronic. There are stronger reasons (albeit still wrong) like the one you presented in post 14.
Repeating a line, it's garbage, over and over isn't arguing something. It's just making an assertive statement.

You've done no actual arguing other than a bad analogy. And you've just ignored engaging in arguing by not responding and throwing out points with and against other points made in posts. Instead focused on other types of responses to keep repeating the statement and proclaiming you are arguing.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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28-07-2016, 07:58 PM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(28-07-2016 07:43 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I am arguing that justifying real abortion with "Its my body and therefore it is my choice" is moronic. There are stronger reasons (albeit still wrong) like the one you presented in post 14.

Once again, you are not arguing anything. You are stating an opinion, one that has no validation.

Using words like "moronic" makes you sound like, well, a moron.

If you were arguing a point, you would be able to say why you think it is "moronic". I believe the tradition is three points or "three legs".

I'll give you a hint: "moronic" is not a valid point. Thumbsup

Since I doubt one hint will cut it, try this. I made the statement that your opinion, as a male, doesn't count.

Argument: The opinion of the fetus' father, the male, does not count in the decision on whether or not to abort a fetus.

To support that argument:

The woman carries the fetus.
The woman's body is at risk from carrying the fetus.
The woman provides the majority of the care after the fetus is born.
The woman bears the social stigma of unplanned pregnancies.

The male does not carry the fetus.
The male's body is at no risk during pregnancy or childbirth.
It is easier for the male to avoid caring for the fetus after birth.
The male bears little if any social stigma of unplanned pregnancies.

As the sperm donor the male does contribute to the creation of the fetus. However the physical, social and financial burdens born by the woman outweigh that contribution.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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28-07-2016, 08:31 PM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
At work.

Sadcryface

This thread did not progress along the lines I thought it would.

Sadcryface2

I thought we'd start talking about other sci-fi tropes.... such as "Ex Machinima" (Sorry, can't think of exact movie titke atm.)
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28-07-2016, 09:09 PM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(28-07-2016 07:06 PM)I Am Wrote:  I think it is a shorthand used to represent a variety of complex and subtle moral positions, including the principle of self-ownership articulated by John Locke and elaborated on by many others. I think you are trying to treat a slogan as if it were a logical statement, say it fails logically, then dismiss the position that slogan is tied to. No dice with me.

It is shorthand for arguments like this:
Quote:You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. The director of the hospital now tells you, "Look, we're sorry the Society of Music Lovers did this to you--we would never have permitted it if we had known. But still, they did it, and the violinist is now plugged into you. To unplug you would be to kill him. But never mind, it's only for nine months. By then he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you." Is it morally incumbent on you to accede to this situation? No doubt it would be very nice of you if you did, a great kindness. But do you have to accede to it? What if it were not nine months, but nine years? Or longer still? What if the director of the hospital says. "Tough luck. I agree. but now you've got to stay in bed, with the violinist plugged into you, for the rest of your life. Because remember this. All persons have a right to life, and violinists are persons. Granted you have a right to decide what happens in and to your body, but a person's right to life outweighs your right to decide what happens in and to your body. So you cannot ever be unplugged from him." I imagine you would regard this as outrageous, which suggests that something really is wrong with that plausible-sounding argument I mentioned a moment ago.

Unconscious Violinst

But if you accept such arguments then you should also accept that a sentient space ship that wakes up one morning to find him or herself infested with humans has a right to eject those humans into space.
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28-07-2016, 09:12 PM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(28-07-2016 07:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  A clot of cells is not a human being. It may develop into one, but it isn't one until it has a nervous system and a brain.

You appear to be missing a brain Chas....yet you are a human being.
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28-07-2016, 09:14 PM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(28-07-2016 09:12 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-07-2016 07:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  A clot of cells is not a human being. It may develop into one, but it isn't one until it has a nervous system and a brain.

You appear to be missing a brain Chas....yet you are a human being.

How very clever, BlowJob. Drinking Beverage

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28-07-2016, 09:36 PM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(28-07-2016 09:09 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-07-2016 07:06 PM)I Am Wrote:  I think it is a shorthand used to represent a variety of complex and subtle moral positions, including the principle of self-ownership articulated by John Locke and elaborated on by many others. I think you are trying to treat a slogan as if it were a logical statement, say it fails logically, then dismiss the position that slogan is tied to. No dice with me.

It is shorthand for arguments like this:
Quote:You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. The director of the hospital now tells you, "Look, we're sorry the Society of Music Lovers did this to you--we would never have permitted it if we had known. But still, they did it, and the violinist is now plugged into you. To unplug you would be to kill him. But never mind, it's only for nine months. By then he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you." Is it morally incumbent on you to accede to this situation? No doubt it would be very nice of you if you did, a great kindness. But do you have to accede to it? What if it were not nine months, but nine years? Or longer still? What if the director of the hospital says. "Tough luck. I agree. but now you've got to stay in bed, with the violinist plugged into you, for the rest of your life. Because remember this. All persons have a right to life, and violinists are persons. Granted you have a right to decide what happens in and to your body, but a person's right to life outweighs your right to decide what happens in and to your body. So you cannot ever be unplugged from him." I imagine you would regard this as outrageous, which suggests that something really is wrong with that plausible-sounding argument I mentioned a moment ago.

Unconscious Violinst

But if you accept such arguments then you should also accept that a sentient space ship that wakes up one morning to find him or herself infested with humans has a right to eject those humans into space.

I decline to engage in your facile and absurdist mental masturbation. Enjoy yourself without my help.
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28-07-2016, 09:45 PM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(28-07-2016 09:09 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  But if you accept such arguments then you should also accept that a sentient space ship that wakes up one morning to find him or herself infested with humans has a right to eject those humans into space.

As someone has already noted, that was not the scenario in the movie.

You can keep repeating it, but you'll still be wrong.

The analogy is false.
The movie reference is inaccurate.
Your opinion is invalid.
Your argument is nonexistent.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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28-07-2016, 10:29 PM
RE: Open the Pod Bay Doors Hal
(28-07-2016 09:45 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(28-07-2016 09:09 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  But if you accept such arguments then you should also accept that a sentient space ship that wakes up one morning to find him or herself infested with humans has a right to eject those humans into space.

As someone has already noted, that was not the scenario in the movie.

You are nit picking. The scenario doesn't have to match the movie exactly. The movie is just an interesting/entertaining way to convey that violinist type arguments are only compelling if you have no fear of every being the violinist.

The Hal type thought experiment shows there is something seriously wrong with "Its my body therefore it is my choice" line of argumentation.
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