Poll: Do you think the federal hourly min. wage should increase?
Yes. It should go to $15 (or more)
Yes. But to something in the $9-$12 range, then it should rise with inflation.
No. It should stay as is.
No. We shouldn't even have a fed. Min. wage.
Other. Read my post to see my brilliance!
[Show Results]
Note: This is a public poll, other users will be able to see what you voted for.
Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
30-05-2016, 06:58 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(29-05-2016 06:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(29-05-2016 02:24 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Themselves? Absolutely. One or two kids? That's really stretching it. Nobody forced these people to have kids when they knew they weren't able to care for them financially.

I don't see this as unreasonable.
I'm not saying life will be easy but the bare essentials should be covered with a 40 hour week for 1 adult, 2 kids at the least. If not 2 adults and 1 kid.

Are you saying people that don't meet a certain IQ level or have been through rough times or whatever have ended up in a minimum wage job do not have the right to have children? What about people that lose their good jobs that have to work a minimum wage job for a while because job opportunities are low.

I say you have the right to do what you want with your life, what you don’t have the right to do is expect others to financially support your decisions.

People do this anyway, they have more kids than they can afford to feed and properly take care of then end up in welfare. Some feel they are somehow entitled to a higher standard of living than they can support, a position you are espousing. It appears you are suggesting that their personal decisions should be subsidized via wages at the expense of the employer.

I have first hand experience with the everyday hardships of many low income families. In fact I live with it day to day as someone who makes available a roof over the head of dozens of families. Some of these families will probably remain in the situation of living hand to mouth for the rest of their lives for many reasons; lack of education, opportunity, drive, luck and poor life choices to name a few. The best some of them can hope to contribute to the economy is menial work and be paid a commensurate wage. (This is not a have 2 or 3 kids, single parent and work 35-40 hours a week wage mind you).

I’m happy to say that I have mentored a few and provided them with ideas and advice, aside from some financial help, to help them get out of their subsistence living. I’m also sad to report that for others no amount of advice or financial help will ever change their lifestyle MO of overspending and poor choices.

As far as I know Capitalism is the worst economic system there is...aside from all the others.

[Image: winstonchurchhill-150.jpg]

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Full Circle's post
02-06-2016, 08:35 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(27-05-2016 08:45 PM)KUSA Wrote:  
(27-05-2016 08:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I think it should be based on the cost of living in the geographical area. $7.25/hour in Podunk could provide an adequate income for the bare necessities of food and housing. In Brooklyn $15/hour ain't enough to even get you off the streets and out of the shelters.

If that's the case then shouldn't the states make their own minimum wage standards?

Brooklyn is not all of the state of New York, though. New York has its "Podunks" as well. It's not possible to have a uniform minimum wage that would be fair for every city in the state. You would have to cut the "geographical areas" smaller than states.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-06-2016, 08:37 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(29-05-2016 10:17 PM)Fireball Wrote:  
(29-05-2016 06:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I don't see this as unreasonable.
I'm not saying life will be easy but the bare essentials should be covered with a 40 hour week for 1 adult, 2 kids at the least. If not 2 adults and 1 kid.

Are you saying people that don't meet a certain IQ level or have been through rough times or whatever have ended up in a minimum wage job do not have the right to have children? What about people that lose their good jobs that have to work a minimum wage job for a while because job opportunities are low.


That attitude is exactly why the US is in this predicament.
How's that working out for you?

Huh Vosur is a German.

The last quote wasn't Vosur -- it was Slowminded. But he's not American, either.

Laugh out load
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-06-2016, 08:42 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(29-05-2016 06:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Are you saying people that don't meet a certain IQ level or have been through rough times or whatever have ended up in a minimum wage job do not have the right to have children?

It's not really about rights. What they're saying is that it's stupid to have children if you can't afford children, and that employers shouldn't be required to support stupidity.

Another way of looking at this is that an employer doesn't care (nor should he, really) what your needs or wants are. He's going to pay you according to what your labor is worth to him. That's what makes sense. If you say "You have to pay me more so I can buy x and y and z" -- why should he care what you want to buy? He's not going to pay you more than you're worth to him.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Grasshopper's post
02-06-2016, 08:46 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(02-06-2016 08:42 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(29-05-2016 06:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Are you saying people that don't meet a certain IQ level or have been through rough times or whatever have ended up in a minimum wage job do not have the right to have children?

It's not really about rights. What they're saying is that it's stupid to have children if you can't afford children, and that employers shouldn't be required to support stupidity.

Another way of looking at this is that an employer doesn't care (nor should he, really) what your needs or wants are. He's going to pay you according to what your labor is worth to him. That's what makes sense. If you say "You have to pay me more so I can buy x and y and z" -- why should he care what you want to buy? He's not going to pay you more than you're worth to him.

Well you can either pay a living wage or you can support the kids by way of welfare. Working 40 hours a week to support 1 kid is not an unreasonable expectation. If you think that 2 people working 40 hours a week should not be able to care for 2 kids you have a very fucked up idea on how society should be structured. For the record this is not about what the business owners want it is about what is best for the country as a whole.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Revenant77x's post
02-06-2016, 09:01 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(02-06-2016 08:46 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 08:42 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It's not really about rights. What they're saying is that it's stupid to have children if you can't afford children, and that employers shouldn't be required to support stupidity.

Another way of looking at this is that an employer doesn't care (nor should he, really) what your needs or wants are. He's going to pay you according to what your labor is worth to him. That's what makes sense. If you say "You have to pay me more so I can buy x and y and z" -- why should he care what you want to buy? He's not going to pay you more than you're worth to him.

Well you can either pay a living wage or you can support the kids by way of welfare. Working 40 hours a week to support 1 kid is not an unreasonable expectation. If you think that 2 people working 40 hours a week should not be able to care for 2 kids you have a very fucked up idea on how society should be structured. For the record this is not about what the business owners want it is about what is best for the country as a whole.

I don't disagree with that. I just think it's a bit more complicated than some people are saying it is, and the employers' needs and wants are also part of the equation. I have no strong feelings one way or the other about minimum wage.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-06-2016, 09:14 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(25-05-2016 04:15 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 04:14 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  It is impossible if the lowest rent for the area you live in is more than $1000/month.
Roommates and move to an area you can afford.

I wonder if you have any idea how the real world works when you're not young and single. Lol.

Some people cannot afford to move. If they can't pay the rent where you live then you're just stuck living in your car or wherever. I make more than a $1000 a month and it is still super difficult to make ends meet.

Some people have kids. Some people had kids in an ideal financial environment and now for some reason or other find themselves in a bad place with debt from some unforeseen issue and income only from a $10 an hour job sure isn't enough to stay afloat.

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Losty's post
02-06-2016, 09:22 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(02-06-2016 09:01 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 08:46 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well you can either pay a living wage or you can support the kids by way of welfare. Working 40 hours a week to support 1 kid is not an unreasonable expectation. If you think that 2 people working 40 hours a week should not be able to care for 2 kids you have a very fucked up idea on how society should be structured. For the record this is not about what the business owners want it is about what is best for the country as a whole.

I don't disagree with that. I just think it's a bit more complicated than some people are saying it is, and the employers' needs and wants are also part of the equation. I have no strong feelings one way or the other about minimum wage.

Well historically these questions come up every time Minimum Wage is messed with and inevitably those fears are proven false. Seattle raised their minimum wage to iirc $15/hour and has had a boom in business since. There is a reason conservatives fight so hard against minimum wage increases and it is not because they don't work, were that the case you let someone try it and fail and then point out that example, they fight so hard because it works. Now this seems a huge jump but that is because we froze worker wages for nearly 30 years effectively so this is more of a level the field and then an increase.

Nothing exists in a bubble and to those saying this wont solve everything, yes but it is a nice start and it gives some breathing room to the people at the bottom while we work on the harder stuff, less a bandage and more a tourniquet. Remember these businesses would be paying higher wages but would be gaining a lot more business as all these workers now have income that is not immediately spent on basic necessities. When people at the bottom get a boost in income they nearly always reinvest it into the local economy. In Seattle at least (and in other places this has been tried) the gain in business has more than offset the cost in wage increases.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-06-2016, 09:52 AM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2016 12:41 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(02-06-2016 08:46 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 08:42 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It's not really about rights. What they're saying is that it's stupid to have children if you can't afford children, and that employers shouldn't be required to support stupidity.

Another way of looking at this is that an employer doesn't care (nor should he, really) what your needs or wants are. He's going to pay you according to what your labor is worth to him. That's what makes sense. If you say "You have to pay me more so I can buy x and y and z" -- why should he care what you want to buy? He's not going to pay you more than you're worth to him.

Well you can either pay a living wage or you can support the kids by way of welfare. Working 40 hours a week to support 1 kid is not an unreasonable expectation. If you think that 2 people working 40 hours a week should not be able to care for 2 kids you have a very fucked up idea on how society should be structured.

I didn’t read his response to suggest that.

(02-06-2016 08:46 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  For the record this is not about what the business owners want it is about what is best for the country as a whole.

Rev, it’s much more nuanced than that.

For example, what is best for the country as a whole would be for people to stop having more kids than they can possibly feed, clothes and educate properly. You can extrapolate that for the entire globe as well.

It would also go a long way for people to budget their priorities and stop expecting society to pick up the tab when they misallocate their personal funds. I see this everyday of my life. I walk into one of my tenant’s 1 bedroom 1 bath apartment to find a twenty-something year old couple (sometimes late teens) with three kids, another on the way, a 54” plasma TV on the wall, the latest electronic toys and out in the parking lot a damn near new car and not a penny in their pocket.

I would venture to say that whoever their employers are could double their salary and tomorrow they would have a fifth kid on the way, a bigger TV, a newer car and possibly be living in one of my 2 bedroom, 1 bath apartments and still not have a penny in their pocket.

I’ve said on this thread that I currently think that the current minimum wage in the US is too low by about $2/hr. But $2/hr is but a band-aid for a family like I just described. Not that they shouldn’t get it, but it wouldn’t change the fact that the people who cannot plan ahead, budget and show some self-restraint will always “need” more money to live on.

I think that you believe, and please correct me if I’m wrong, that a redistribution of wealth from business owners to employees would be a fair and equitable thing to do and the best way of doing this is raising the minimum wage. I agree with this with the caveat that placing too high an economic hurdle to business weakens the country as a whole.

Private businesses are motivated by profit. No profit, no point in having a business. If the very companies that hire employees and pay their wages close their doors what happens to their employees? They now have to compete in an ever shrinking labor market driving competition for jobs higher and in turn driving wages lower, not to mention that unemployment will rise.

In the end the “us against them” mentality harms both sides of the aisle. Employers will always need to motivate employees with fair pay for their labors and a good work environment. Many of them do, some don’t. Employees need to produce a benefit for the employer, the higher that benefit is the more they can expect to be paid. Some employees rise in the company, others don’t. That’s competition in a capitalistic economy.

I also think that everyone should take responsibility for their actions without expecting that society as a whole will come running to their rescue when their paycheck doesn’t float their elected lifestyle. For times when people find themselves in situations that are not of their own making (health, injury, death of a spouse) then the welfare system should be there as a temporary safety net.

Like I said, it is much more nuanced to determine what is “best” for the country than painting the businesses as the bad guys.


*corrections to spelling and grammar

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Full Circle's post
02-06-2016, 10:46 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(02-06-2016 09:14 AM)Losty Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 04:15 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Roommates and move to an area you can afford.

I wonder if you have any idea how the real world works when you're not young and single. Lol.

Some people cannot afford to move. If they can't pay the rent where you live then you're just stuck living in your car or wherever. I make more than a $1000 a month and it is still super difficult to make ends meet.

Some people have kids. Some people had kids in an ideal financial environment and now for some reason or other find themselves in a bad place with debt from some unforeseen issue and income only from a $10 an hour job sure isn't enough to stay afloat.
Sure, for some it is not an option. But I also know those who live with their family for years after having children, or do split a rental multiple ways because it's all they can afford. Having kids does make it much more difficult, but there are still often options. 4 years ago I was living with my Mom, my sister, her husband, and their 4 kids. It took them a few years to improve their situation so they could move out and live the way they wanted, but they did it. Of course not everybody has family to do this with. But living with friends, or possibly interviewing several people to find appropriate roommates is still something people do.

I can only look like a heartless bastard in saying this, but I really advocate people doing what they need to do to survive in the short term. AND doing what they need to do to improve themselves so they can get what they want in the long term. If $10/hr doesn't cut it, make sacrifices and survive, and find a way to earn more via researching other jobs and acquiring new skills.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Adrianime's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: