Poll: Do you think the federal hourly min. wage should increase?
Yes. It should go to $15 (or more)
Yes. But to something in the $9-$12 range, then it should rise with inflation.
No. It should stay as is.
No. We shouldn't even have a fed. Min. wage.
Other. Read my post to see my brilliance!
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Note: This is a public poll, other users will be able to see what you voted for.
Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
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27-05-2016, 07:54 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(27-05-2016 07:46 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(27-05-2016 07:34 AM)cjlr Wrote:  But, but, earmuffs, don't you get it?

1) Things worked out okay for him;
2) Therefore, things can always work out for anyone!

After all, a sample size of one can't possibly be insufficient!

Eat me.

You think I'm some rich prick sitting on my ass, living off the sweat of "the po' man"..

I very clearly did not say that. Indeed, I said nothing even remotely like that.

Why do you think I did?

I am curious.

(27-05-2016 07:46 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  I AM the "po' man".....

I've seen people get ahead -- by working their asses off...... I did it myself for quite a while -- and when I got run over by a truck and was never able to work again. I'd gotten myself to a place where I could SURVIVE. I've never bought a new car - and will never be able to. I have to spend my summers working, (in physical pain) cutting wood -- so I can have heat in the winter. I have to watch my spending very carefully --- but I survive.

Have you seen people work their asses off and not get ahead?

Because plenty of them exist too, no matter how inconvenient to your self-image that is.

(27-05-2016 07:46 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  I've seen much less gain (especially personally) "by protesting" -- except maybe a few lumps to the head - and a few seconds of TV News time................

Bitch, piss and moan...

Or get to work...

I've always thought "fuck you, got mine" was a repulsive attitude.

"Fuck you for wanting what I don't have either" is actually even pathetic.

(27-05-2016 07:46 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Guess which one gets you further??

People fought and died for every benefit you blithely don't even realize you've received. So there's that.

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27-05-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
First of all, people ( looking at you Brian37 ) need to understand that the ones who oppose 15$ minimum wage are not doing so because they have " fuck the working class " attitude , they do it because they believe that unrealistically high minimum wage is ultimately bad for the working class.

Seems counter intuitive at first glance, but if you look at things more realistically it makes a lot of sense. At least I think so.

I think it`s pretty naive to think that this extra money for minimum wage workers will come out of the pockets of that top 1% or top 5% , whatever.
Noble thought , but it`s not going to work that way I`m afraid.

More likely it will come out of the pockets of actual middle class, people who now work for 20 to 40 $ an hour.

How so? Admittedly I didn`t look at this in great detail , but there seems to be little disagreement on the claim that increase in minimum wages creates unemployment (?) because some small businesses will close their doors, others will opt for automation, and some will move their business abroad....

If this is true, this increased unemployment upsets the balance between the employers and employees , and the shift is in favor of the employers.
People who were looking for jobs that used to pay 30$ an hour will have to accept the same jobs for less money because of the increased competition among workers for that job.

So instead of closing the gap between working class and the super rich, this increase in minimum wages might in fact increase the gap.

Instead of having a 18 y/o flipping burgers for 8$ an hour as an entry level job you might get somebody with a college degree flipping burgers for 15$ an hour as his permanent job, and that 18 y/o left holding nothing but his dick in his hands.

Before Brian loses his shit again, I have to point out that this is just my opinion, I am not a business owner or a legislator in the US, in fact , as much of you know , I don`t even live in the US.

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27-05-2016, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 27-05-2016 08:22 AM by cjlr.)
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(27-05-2016 08:00 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  How so? Admittedly I didn`t look at this in great detail , but there seems to be little disagreement on the claim that increase in minimum wages creates unemployment (?) because some small businesses will close their doors, others will opt for automation, and some will move their business abroad....

... Except there is a great deal of disagreement on that claim. To the point where I'd say it's the minority opinion.

Cross-border metropolitan areas (where minimum wage differs, obviously) serve as an ideal test case, for somewhere like the US. There is no substantial impact.
EDIT: that is, places like Texarkana (0.75 difference), Chicagoland (1.00 difference), Kansas City (0.40 difference)...

(27-05-2016 08:00 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  If this is true, this increased unemployment upsets the balance between the employers and employees , and the shift is in favor of the employers.
People who were looking for jobs that used to pay 30$ an hour will have to accept the same jobs for less money because of the increased competition among workers for that job.

So instead of closing the gap between working class and the super rich, this increase in minimum wages might in fact increase the gap.

Instead of having a 18 y/o flipping burgers for 8$ an hour as an entry level job you might get somebody with a college degree flipping burgers for 15$ an hour as his permanent job, and that 18 y/o left holding nothing but his dick in his hands.

If we make the right assumptions and speculations, we can make anything look bad.

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27-05-2016, 08:27 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
Just comparing the U.S. to a country with a higher min. wage doesn't cut it IMO. It doesn't account for cultural differences, population differences, or the impact of an extreme change over a relatively short period of time. "Extreme" because of the percentage difference from current to proposed.

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27-05-2016, 08:32 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(27-05-2016 08:27 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Just comparing the U.S. to a country with a higher min. wage doesn't cut it IMO. It doesn't account for cultural differences, population differences, or the impact of an extreme change over a relatively short period of time. "Extreme" because of the percentage difference from current to proposed.

So basically what you are saying is your preconceived notions are more important than empirical data. That is just not the case as you can compare previous Minimum Wage hikes (or it's initial implementation) and see that in all cases the net result is the same a boost to local economy and an increase in employment. More money in the local economy means more need for businesses to hire employees. In fact it is the only thing that does increase local economies. Tax breaks to businesses does nothing to incentivise them to hire more people but an increase in business does.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-05-2016, 08:34 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(27-05-2016 08:27 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Just comparing the U.S. to a country with a higher min. wage doesn't cut it IMO. It doesn't account for cultural differences, population differences, or the impact of an extreme change over a relatively short period of time. "Extreme" because of the percentage difference from current to proposed.

1), the increase is proposed to take quite a few years to increment up;
2), in the absence of blinded, controlled studies of entire geopolitical jurisdictions, all we can look at are neighbouring jurisdictions within the US;
3), didn't I already mention both these things?

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27-05-2016, 08:38 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(27-05-2016 08:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(27-05-2016 08:27 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Just comparing the U.S. to a country with a higher min. wage doesn't cut it IMO. It doesn't account for cultural differences, population differences, or the impact of an extreme change over a relatively short period of time. "Extreme" because of the percentage difference from current to proposed.

So basically what you are saying is your preconceived notions are more important than empirical data. That is just not the case as you can compare previous Minimum Wage hikes (or it's initial implementation) and see that in all cases the net result is the same a boost to local economy and an increase in employment. More money in the local economy means more need for businesses to hire employees. In fact it is the only thing that does increase local economies. Tax breaks to businesses does nothing to incentivise them to hire more people but an increase in business does.

I mean, yes, if we blindly assume that the increase in pay going to minimum wage earners (already only a small part of total expenditure) is not matched by whatever added sales come from significantly increasing the purchasing power of those minimum wage earners...

Oh, if only we had some data we could look at.

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27-05-2016, 08:40 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(27-05-2016 08:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(27-05-2016 08:27 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Just comparing the U.S. to a country with a higher min. wage doesn't cut it IMO. It doesn't account for cultural differences, population differences, or the impact of an extreme change over a relatively short period of time. "Extreme" because of the percentage difference from current to proposed.

So basically what you are saying is your preconceived notions are more important than empirical data. That is just not the case as you can compare previous Minimum Wage hikes (or it's initial implementation) and see that in all cases the net result is the same a boost to local economy and an increase in employment. More money in the local economy means more need for businesses to hire employees. In fact it is the only thing that does increase local economies. Tax breaks to businesses does nothing to incentivise them to hire more people but an increase in business does.
No, I'm saying that what works in one country won't work the exact same way in another. And on top of that, do other countries have modern record of moving min. wage up more than 100% in a short period of time (without even accounting for inflation)?

"More money in the local economy" assumes that the people who get a pay raise from this are going to just go out and spend it on consumer products. Perhaps they will use it to instead afford a better rental, or invest into retirement.

And I said nothing about tax breaks to businesses.

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27-05-2016, 08:42 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(27-05-2016 08:34 AM)cjlr Wrote:  1), the increase is proposed to take quite a few years to increment up;
A few years is a "relatively short amount of time".
Quote:2), in the absence of blinded, controlled studies of entire geopolitical jurisdictions, all we can look at are neighbouring jurisdictions within the US;
sounds good!
Quote:3), didn't I already mention both these things?
Haha possibly Wink

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27-05-2016, 08:42 AM
RE: Opinions on the proposed US $15 Min. Wage
(27-05-2016 08:40 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  And on top of that, do other countries have modern record of moving min. wage up more than 100% in a short period of time (without even accounting for inflation)?

No.

But then again, no one is proposing that.

Notwithstanding that I still don't think a national minimum wage is well-suited to the granularity of cost of living, have you actually read the proposals?

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