Opportunity Squandered
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13-01-2015, 10:41 AM
RE: Opportunity Squandered
I use "subjective" as my opinion, "objective" as reality.

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13-01-2015, 10:55 AM
RE: Opportunity Squandered
(13-01-2015 10:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I use "subjective" as my opinion, "objective" as reality.

That doesn't explain "objective peace". Please demonstrate that such a thing exists without basing it on your opinions.

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13-01-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: Opportunity Squandered
(13-01-2015 10:55 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 10:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I use "subjective" as my opinion, "objective" as reality.

That doesn't explain "objective peace". Please demonstrate that such a thing exists without basing it on your opinions.

I can see, for example, where you might consider this subjective, but if we are defining peace as the absence of conflict, Jesus can take away incredible amounts of past hurts, past abuse, etc. I am called to not just be at peace with my enemies but love and care for them--this is peace.

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13-01-2015, 04:29 PM
RE: Opportunity Squandered
(13-01-2015 03:13 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 10:55 AM)unfogged Wrote:  That doesn't explain "objective peace". Please demonstrate that such a thing exists without basing it on your opinions.

I can see, for example, where you might consider this subjective, but if we are defining peace as the absence of conflict, Jesus can take away incredible amounts of past hurts, past abuse, etc. I am called to not just be at peace with my enemies but love and care for them--this is peace.

None of which is objective. None of which requires "Jesus". The idea that a delusion gives you comfort can be true while still remaining a delusion.

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14-01-2015, 10:41 AM
RE: Opportunity Squandered
(13-01-2015 04:29 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 03:13 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I can see, for example, where you might consider this subjective, but if we are defining peace as the absence of conflict, Jesus can take away incredible amounts of past hurts, past abuse, etc. I am called to not just be at peace with my enemies but love and care for them--this is peace.

None of which is objective. None of which requires "Jesus". The idea that a delusion gives you comfort can be true while still remaining a delusion.

Can we add quantitative measures to assess subjective areas? Atheists are fond of citing prayer "studies" and "measurements" for one example. Smile

But seriously, how many people do you personally know who love their enemies. This is a real change. If this is possible without Jesus (and non-Christians I am thinking of include, um, Ghandi and that's about it, and he was influenced strongly by the Bible) who love their enemies. If this is possible "going solo" how would you explain away warfare?

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14-01-2015, 10:58 AM
RE: Opportunity Squandered
(14-01-2015 10:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Can we add quantitative measures to assess subjective areas? Atheists are fond of citing prayer "studies" and "measurements" for one example. Smile

I have no idea what you are trying to say there.

Quote:But seriously, how many people do you personally know who love their enemies. This is a real change. If this is possible without Jesus (and non-Christians I am thinking of include, um, Ghandi and that's about it, and he was influenced strongly by the Bible) who love their enemies.

"Love your enemy" is a vacuous platitude that Christians like to say but when push comes to shove it doesn't often mean much and can even be a bad idea.

Quote: If this is possible "going solo" how would you explain away warfare?

Where did I say it was possible "going solo"? I said you don't need "Jesus" to let go of past injuries and to decide that life can be better if you do. Tying it to warfare is just a non-sequitur. The fact that not all people are capable of letting go of past injuries doesn't mean that some can, even without suffering from your particular delusion. I suggest you look at the credos and goals of secular humanist organizations to see that "Jesus" isn't needed for anything.

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15-01-2015, 02:30 PM
RE: Opportunity Squandered
(14-01-2015 10:58 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-01-2015 10:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Can we add quantitative measures to assess subjective areas? Atheists are fond of citing prayer "studies" and "measurements" for one example. Smile

I have no idea what you are trying to say there.

Quote:But seriously, how many people do you personally know who love their enemies. This is a real change. If this is possible without Jesus (and non-Christians I am thinking of include, um, Ghandi and that's about it, and he was influenced strongly by the Bible) who love their enemies.

"Love your enemy" is a vacuous platitude that Christians like to say but when push comes to shove it doesn't often mean much and can even be a bad idea.

Quote: If this is possible "going solo" how would you explain away warfare?

Where did I say it was possible "going solo"? I said you don't need "Jesus" to let go of past injuries and to decide that life can be better if you do. Tying it to warfare is just a non-sequitur. The fact that not all people are capable of letting go of past injuries doesn't mean that some can, even without suffering from your particular delusion. I suggest you look at the credos and goals of secular humanist organizations to see that "Jesus" isn't needed for anything.

I'll clarify, I was challenged that I'm unable to add quantitative measures to something as subjective as spiritual things, though I remark that (some of) the same atheists at TTA who accuse me love to quote badly-conducted studies on prayer (badly conducted according to the biblical terms) as smoking-gun empirical evidence.

Also, love my enemy is not a vacuous platitude for me or any other (dare I say "true"?) born again Christian. I feel as I must say "true" despite the NTS warnings that someone can say they are anything without really being an adherent. For those of us who "really" love Jesus and try as "best we can" to follow Him, we are not merely to let go or forgive enemies but benefit them, bless them and love them--try it sometime without God's help if you think this is a platitude and not what it is, an expression of God's power. As a matter of fact, I'd go further to say (my personal opinion, not that I can find this in the Bible) that if you were never a Christian you might have tried to forgive some enemies but never tried to love them (sacrifice unto them, give to them, treat them like yourself, treat them without prejudice or disfavor, etc.)

I see what you mean about not going solo to do this, but you also wrote the same forgiveness thing again of "letting go". Telling someone who victimized you, assaulted you or brutalized you that you love them and then ACTING in love toward them is a lot further than letting go. When I see my atheist friends loving their enemies in deeds and not just words (or even words, really) I will see Jesus as less actualized and powerful.

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15-01-2015, 04:28 PM
RE: Opportunity Squandered
(15-01-2015 02:30 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'll clarify, I was challenged that I'm unable to add quantitative measures to something as subjective as spiritual things, though I remark that (some of) the same atheists at TTA who accuse me love to quote badly-conducted studies on prayer (badly conducted according to the biblical terms) as smoking-gun empirical evidence.

A scientific study adheres to scientific rules, not Biblical.

Quote:Also, love my enemy is not a vacuous platitude for me or any other (dare I say "true"?) born again Christian. I feel as I must say "true" despite the NTS warnings that someone can say they are anything without really being an adherent.

Sigh. You still don't understand that you don't get to determine who is or is not a True Christian™. You are welcome to your opinion on who is or who isn't, but the fallacy you keep committing is using your judgement as an argument.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-01-2015, 06:33 PM
RE: Opportunity Squandered
(15-01-2015 02:30 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Also, love my enemy is not a vacuous platitude for me or any other (dare I say "true"?) born again Christian. I feel as I must say "true" despite the NTS warnings that someone can say they are anything without really being an adherent.

Too late! Big Grin From my perspective there are as many "True Christians" as there are Christians. You seem to have picked all the nice, gentle, loving parts of the NT and woven them into a personal religion for yourself. Others also swear that they are true followers of Christ and incorporate more of the militant side of the character form the bible. You have no more evidence that your interpretation of any of it is correct than they do for their interpretations. Your position may be less of a problem than many others, but it is still an irrational position as far as I can see.

What I do agree about is that if somebody (a) believes that Jesus exists in some way other than as a fictional character and (b) believes that Jesus wants them to act in a certain way and © b) believes that Jesus can and will punish them if they don't then they could certainly try to act that way. What you aren't getting is that if somebody is convinced that "love your enemies" is the best way to live then they could also try to live that way without needing a belief in Jesus. The stronger the belief the closer they may come to succeeding.

There may very well be many more Christians than atheists trying to live up to that goal. I'm not convinced it is a reasonable one. It makes sense to me to forgive enemies, to respect enemies, to be civil with enemies, etc. It does not make sense to me to treat anybody who is an actual enemy with love as that cheapens the emotion to the point of making it worthless. If you truly mean that you would truly try to love an enemy the same way you would love friends or family then I feel sorry for you because you don't understand what love is.

Regardless, if you are going to claim that this can only be done with god's help then you first have to give me a reason to believe some god exists. I don't accept that being able to love your enemies even begins to accomplish that. It only demonstrates an abnormal emotional reaction.

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16-01-2015, 03:08 PM
RE: Opportunity Squandered
Quote:A scientific study adheres to scientific rules, not Biblical.

Then the study cited to me earlier was proving the ineffective nature of non-biblical prayer. Now, there could be a study set up to test biblical rules of prayer (although the funding on that one...).

Quote:Sigh. You still don't understand that you don't get to determine who is or is not a True Christian™. You are welcome to your opinion on who is or who isn't, but the fallacy you keep committing is using your judgement as an argument.

The problem with your syllogism as I understand it is that no one gets to determine who is or isn't a real Christian. Thus no one can say my definition is correct or incorrect, thus no one can say which subset anyone is in.

If I wrote to you that 3+3=6, would you claim No True Mathematician against my reasoning?

3+3=6 true
3+3=7 false

Jesus said those who trust in Him shall never perish in Hell. One must trust in Him to be truly saved. Would you prefer I write "truly saved" instead of "real Christian"?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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