Opposed to God or the idea of God?
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09-10-2017, 02:52 PM
RE: Opposed to God or the idea of God?
(09-10-2017 02:45 PM)Eagle Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 02:41 PM)julep Wrote:  I'm curious how you could assert that god does exist. From your other posts, it seems as though your only argument for god is that the universe exists, so something must have created it. Therefore...bible god? You need to show your work here.

I'm not opposed to the idea of god, just unconvinced.

As for the character of god in the bible (which as an evangelical preacher's kid I've read many times), I'm not opposed to him. Stories without a villain can be dull, and god spices up the bible considerably. You never know whether he's going to order his followers to commit a genocide or do the killing himself. I like the character of Zeus better than the bible god, but I think it's fine that you like the bible god better. There's a lot of interesting stuff in various mythologies, but I don't make the leap from enjoying the story to thinking I need to worship any of the characters.

It's not my only argument,

But, my question to you is: How could the universe be created if it wasn't by God?

I don't know that the universe was created. Most especially I don't know that any first cause/first move involved creative intent.

How does first cause lead to the christian god?
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09-10-2017, 02:53 PM
RE: Opposed to God or the idea of God?
(09-10-2017 02:43 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 01:37 PM)Eagle Wrote:  Haha OK, I don't really know the place, so I apologize for this not really being it. But no, of course unicorns don't exist,

The example I like to use is leprechauns, as opposed to unicorns. Once you describe leprechauns as sufficiently magical and elusive, it becomes impossible to prove they don't exist. That's the problem with nonfalsifiable entities.

If someone described God as a guy with a beard in a toga who lives in a temple in Mount Olympus, that's a claim that we can look into. As soon as you describe God as an entity who exists outside space and time and is only seen when he wants to be... we're pretty much dealing with leprechauns. I mean, maybe it's true, but it's kinda hard to tell.


(09-10-2017 01:37 PM)Eagle Wrote:  but God clearly exists, due to universe existing (after all, who else could have created the universe and the marvels of the world).

The laws of the universe (themodynamics) prove that nothing can be created out of nothing. God created the universe.

I have yet to meet a single atheist who actually claims that the Big Bang came from "nothing". The idea is that all of the matter in the universe existed in a singularity, so there was never "nothing". This might lead you to the first cause argument, but that's an entirely different issue, and also one that doesn't definitively prove God.

I'm not going to say you can't believe in God, but every single Christian apologetic I've seen contains logical fallacies (most of them) and/or results in an indeterminate solution (Pascal's wager/the cosmological argument).

The "bang" is the expansionary epoch. The BB theory says nothing about the conditions that were in place before the expansionary epoch, and it certainly does not say the universe began at the Big Bang ... that's just Christian apologetics pathetic attempt to twist the theory to suit their Bible. Actually, even the Bible does not say God created the universe. Read Genesis 1:1. It says no such thing.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-10-2017, 02:54 PM
RE: Opposed to God or the idea of God?
(09-10-2017 02:50 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 02:45 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I choose to believe Eagle is a troll.

Way more proof for that than for his genocidal, misogynistic, homophobic, primitive, non-existing god. Drinking Beverage

Haha.

God doesn't hate anyone. God loves people, he even loves you Vera, and me.
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09-10-2017, 02:54 PM
RE: Opposed to God or the idea of God?
(09-10-2017 02:43 PM)Eagle Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 02:37 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Did you try choosing to stop believing in God for a moment and, if so, were you able? Consider

I used to be a Christian. When I stopped believing, I did not want to stop believing. In fact, it scared me to death (well, not literally to death obviously Tongue ) because of the hell concept. I prayed to God to help me regain my faith. It most definitely was not a choice. It happened because of information, logic, discrepancies between the god concept and what I could observe in life, etc. Definitely no choice.

Regarding the evolution thing, when you say people believed anyway, what makes you say it was by choice and not just what happened?
I don't think people can stop being a Christian, if they did stop, they never where a Christian to being with, as, that is, one can't be unborn.

Could I ask, when you say you 'used to be a Christian', where you part of a particular denomination?

For myself, I always wanted to believe, life's futile without it, so the reverse was true, when I did finally believe, it was joy.

As to 'stop believing in God', I think what you mean is doubt? Doubt is an interesting one, because, where there is doubt, there is a sparkle of belief there too, but I cannot stop believing in God, because all the evidence says yes. I wonder why you would ask that?

Well, I warned you fair and square. Stay off the topic of religion until you get to know the community. Boy, you just couldn't resit the bait, could you?

See that little red number on the upper right hand corner of your window? That's your reputation. It currently reads -4. Your ideas are not being well received and the locals haven't learned who you are as a person to be able to determine whether you're sincere, or a troll. The trend is that most Christians who come around here are trolls, so their conclusions are well founded.

Well, I like a chew toy as much as the next person, so if you're going to offer yourself up as a sacrifice instead of doing it right and having meaningful conversations, then don't be surprised if I also take a bite, theist or not.
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09-10-2017, 02:55 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2017 02:59 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Opposed to God or the idea of God?
(09-10-2017 02:54 PM)Eagle Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 02:50 PM)Vera Wrote:  Way more proof for that than for his genocidal, misogynistic, homophobic, primitive, non-existing god. Drinking Beverage

Haha.

God doesn't hate anyone.

It's hard to hard to hate when you don't exist Drinking Beverage

(09-10-2017 02:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Well, I warned you fair and square. Stay off the topic of religion until you get to know the community. Boy, you just couldn't resit the bait, could you?

See that little red number on the upper right hand corner of your window? That's your reputation. It currently reads -4. Your ideas are not being well received and the locals haven't learned who you are as a person to be able to determine whether you're sincere, or a troll. The trend is that most Christians who come around here are trolls, so their conclusions are well founded.

Well, I like a chew toy as much as the next person, so if you're going to offer yourself up as a sacrifice instead of doing it right and having meaningful conversations, then don't be surprised if I also take a bite, theist or not.

You're too good for this sinful forum but I'm afraid you're wasting your time. Person which write I'm not religious, I'm a Christian and then start with shit like god cause thermodynamics can only be troll. Or fool who shouldn't be capable of turning on PC much less writing.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-10-2017, 02:55 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2017 02:59 PM by jennybee.)
RE: Opposed to God or the idea of God?
(09-10-2017 02:37 PM)Eagle Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 02:26 PM)unsapien Wrote:  [Image: bc-080629-eagle-mauled-FULL.jpg]
Yes, of course all animals are mortal beings, but that is not the point, it is about a representation in this case.

Just as the owl is a representative of Satan.

The owl is representative of Lilith (my fave biblical times character) as she is often portrayed next to owls. From Isaiah 34:

(12) Her nobles shall be no more, nor shall kings be proclaimed there; all her princes are gone. (13) Her castles shall be overgrown with thorns, her fortresses with thistles and briers. She shall become an abode for jackals and a haunt for ostriches. (14) Wildcats shall meet with desert beasts, satyrs shall call to one another; There shall the Lilith repose, and find for herself a place to rest. (15) There the hoot owl shall nest and lay eggs, hatch them out and gather them in her shadow; There shall the kites assemble, none shall be missing its mate. (16) Look in the book of the LORD and read: No one of these shall be lacking, For the mouth of the LORD has ordered it, and His spirit shall gather them there. (17) It is He who casts the lot for them, and with His hands He marks off their shares of her; They shall possess her forever, and dwell there from generation to generation.

From Ellicott's Bible Commentary:

(14) The wild beasts of the desert . . .--Better, wild cats or hyenas shall meet wolves. The nouns that follow belong, apparently, to the region of mythical zoology. The English "satyr" expresses fairly enough the idea of a "demon-brute" haunting the waste places of the palaces of Edom, while the "screech-owl" is the Lilith, the she-vampire, who appears in the legends of the Talmud as having been Adam's first wife, who left him and was turned into a demon.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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09-10-2017, 02:56 PM
RE: Opposed to God or the idea of God?
(09-10-2017 02:43 PM)Eagle Wrote:  I don't think people can stop being a Christian, if they did stop, they never where a Christian to being with, as, that is, one can't be unborn.
Please no, not no true scotsman. Facepalm
I was all in as a Christian... so much so I nearly dedicated my entire life to it as a priest. Religion consumed my life at that point and it's how and why I started learning a lot more about it. And it was during that learning that everything fell apart in terms of my faith because so much didn't jive. I have absolutely stopped being a Christian - 100%. In fact, there is so much wrong with the Christian god that, even if you could prove this god exists, I would not praise or worship that god.

(09-10-2017 02:43 PM)Eagle Wrote:  Could I ask, when you say you 'used to be a Christian', where you part of a particular denomination?
Catholicism

(09-10-2017 02:43 PM)Eagle Wrote:  For myself, I always wanted to believe, life's futile without it, so the reverse was true, when I did finally believe, it was joy.
You sought out what you wanted. No big surprise that you found it. However, you may want to take an honest look at how objective you really were in your journey to believing. You may have been biased by your desire to believe. Just a thought.

(09-10-2017 02:43 PM)Eagle Wrote:  As to 'stop believing in God', I think what you mean is doubt? Doubt is an interesting one, because, where there is doubt, there is a sparkle of belief there too, but I cannot stop believing in God, because all the evidence says yes. I wonder why you would ask that?
No, I mean stop believing. Choose for a moment to believe that there is no god. If belief and disbelief are choices as you claim, then this should be possible. If you can't choose to stop believing, then you may want to rethink whether it's truly a choice. Of course, I'm arguing that it isn't.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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09-10-2017, 02:57 PM
RE: Opposed to God or the idea of God?
(09-10-2017 02:43 PM)Eagle Wrote:  I don't think people can stop being a Christian, if they did stop, they never where a Christian to being with, as, that is, one can't be unborn.

Could I ask, when you say you 'used to be a Christian', where you part of a particular denomination?

For myself, I always wanted to believe, life's futile without it, so the reverse was true, when I did finally believe, it was joy.

Drugs and beer can make you happy too. People "lose their faith" all the time ... so yeah, you're wrong about that ... and you don't tell people what they think. You don't know more about them than they do about themselves.

I do get you *need* your explanations ... (your *religion*) ... as you suffer from low ambiguity tolerance and a high need for cognitive closure.

At least you admit it.
I need the Easter Bunny and Santa.
No one really stops having faith in them.
I know they are coming back.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-10-2017, 02:59 PM
RE: Opposed to God or the idea of God?
(09-10-2017 02:51 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  It was as though someone threw a bone into a cage of ravenous hyenas! I need to get new superpowers. Dodgy

Only, the bone chose to throw itself at them, probably trying to score brownie points with sky daddy.

We're only human, after all (and some of us - in a bit of a moodie Rolleyes )

[Image: Hyenas-classic-disney-22918674-400-226.gif]

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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09-10-2017, 03:01 PM
RE: Opposed to God or the idea of God?
(09-10-2017 02:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 02:45 PM)Eagle Wrote:  It's not my only argument,

But, my question to you is: How could the universe be created if it wasn't by God?

So you admit, it's nothing but a place-holder, god-of-the-gaps argument.
You're not really very good at this.

Faith is a gift of God, (according the Christian theology), and St. Paul ... on of the "gifts of the Spirit". You think you know better than Paul ?
Its not the result of "reason".

"No one shall come to me, unless the Father draw him".
You don't read your Bible ?
I don't admit anything, i'm simply asking the question of where you think the universe comes from, if not God.

But, as to your post, for sure, faith is a gift of God, but people can chose to reject the Holy Spirit, for we have a free will, but this is not the same as everyone - God gives the increase, but faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17)

Someone who knows the truth, but rejects it, would come into this category, 'Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.' Acts 7:51

But, am I to take it to say that, despite the fact that God is the most logical explanation for the creation of the universe, you chose to reject that, anyway?

That's OK - that's the point of the thread, to find out thethinkingpersons alternative!
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