Oppressive Secular Laws
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30-08-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: Oppressive Secular Laws
(30-08-2015 04:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  But I know one thing: destruction will never bring Justice and Peace.





(30-08-2015 04:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  I wish we all started to understand each other better. Or at least we can try.

Girly loves Alla.

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#sigh
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30-08-2015, 05:05 PM
RE: Oppressive Secular Laws
Luke 22:36
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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30-08-2015, 05:15 PM
RE: Oppressive Secular Laws
(30-08-2015 05:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Luke 22:36
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

Yes. Jesus said to buy a sword. He was talking about our second amendment.
So, if you are attacking me to kill me I can and will kill you first.
But if you kill me and later my brother kills GirlyMan(another evil atheist) instead then it won't bring Justice, it wont bring Peace.

If white cop kills black boy we can kill THIS white cop. But we can NOT destroy somebody's property or kill another cop and demand Justice and Peace at the same time.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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30-08-2015, 05:16 PM
RE: Oppressive Secular Laws
(30-08-2015 04:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 04:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  But I know one thing: destruction will never bring Justice and Peace.





(30-08-2015 04:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  I wish we all started to understand each other better. Or at least we can try.

Girly loves Alla.

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GirlyMan, I think we have love-hate relationship on this forum. Don't you agree?

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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30-08-2015, 05:31 PM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2015 05:36 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Oppressive Secular Laws
(30-08-2015 05:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 04:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  




Girly loves Alla.

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GirlyMan, I think we have love-hate relationship on this forum. Don't you agree?

No Alla. We have a love relationship. Girly loves Alla. There is no hate.

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30-08-2015, 05:35 PM
RE: Oppressive Secular Laws
(23-08-2015 02:22 PM)julep Wrote:  The "freedom of speech" some religious people are demanding is actually the privilege of unopposed speech/freedom from dissent. That's not constitutionally protected.

Wow - awesomely put! (note to self...)

“Narg know people come back somtimes. Narg wait. You no need sword. Put sword down. Narg no hurt.” – Narg
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30-08-2015, 05:52 PM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2015 06:08 PM by Matrim Cauthon.)
RE: Oppressive Secular Laws
(23-08-2015 02:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  Actually it is not my opinion. This is Doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ.
If I share this Doctrine openly all the hell will break loose.
I will be called a bigot and a person who wants to discriminate gay people.
If I want to talk about it(my believes on marriage) at liberal University they will ban me.
We don't have oppressive secular laws yet. We will have them. Very soon.

Maybe...I think I've felt something like this in the past many times, and it's an interesting angle to the whole argument.

let's say you have Mother and Child, and this Child continues to have ridiculous beliefs about something that, all things considered, the Mother knows in an instant (for a feasible fact) is wrong - but out of love, patience, or whatever else - tries to 'convince' the child of what she already knows to be correct - and further that the only reason the child is arguing, is from ignorance.

This is truly a 'dangerous' statement...but I believe that - outside 'scientific debate' (more in a 'lay' sense) - Theism is instantly debunked to any who don't hold to it 'emotionally and/or psychologically' - altogether outside of the natural thinking patterns used for most any other 'conclusions'.

Short version: Theism is wrong, we know why they still believe in it, it still doesn't change the fact they're wrong - and perhaps one day, the Mother will stop trying to 'convince' the child, and just start dictating to it whether it likes it or not, simply from the fact that the Mother simply "knows" - not just regarding her 'case' on the matter - but per why the child believes what he does, etc.

Again...quasi-dangerous thought (a lot of slippery slopes can materialize) - but still...ultimately the entire 'Theist' argument to me, often can be summed up as:

A person in the desert arguing with me on the existence of rain. I "KNOW" it exists - as I have seen it...and although I understand WHY this person in the desert doesn't believe in it, and although we could enter into a host of discussions about evidence, etc - ultimately, I do believe my position would ultimately 'allow' for me to simply say "look, rain exists, you're incorrect, and now you're disregarded - until such time as your disbelief in rain begins to cause problems, which at that time, you'll simply need to be stopped - and as a Mother and child - you may just have to have it dictated to you, and be dis-allowed the privilege of your belief (in as much as it negatively effects the world).

EDIT: Now also - let's imagine that same Mother & Child, same argument as above: the child is now murdering neighborhood animals as sacrifices, beating up other kids who won't validate his beliefs etc...now the child indeed needs stopping...whether through 'convincing'...or otherwise.

(23-08-2015 02:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  Prophecies never fail.

If you mean that, the 'writers' of scripture - who also claim to speak to burning bushes and the like - suspected that one day there might be evidence to show how silly all that is, and work towards uncovering their manipulations - then yes, that prophecy will come true. ...If I make some galactically outlandish shit up, and then say "Lo, thou wilt hear some people in the future try to say this is bullshit" - that's a really convenient way to attempt self-coverage...and really, someone who makes shit up to the degree those 'writers' did (parting seas, walking on water, raising dead, etc) - I wouldn't expect it to NOT include some kind of 'clause' like that... If it were you making up a stories like that - wouldn't you also take a moment to think about how you could address the inevitability of people being skeptical of your outlandish claims?

“Narg know people come back somtimes. Narg wait. You no need sword. Put sword down. Narg no hurt.” – Narg
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30-08-2015, 07:56 PM
RE: Oppressive Secular Laws
(30-08-2015 03:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  Both sides are at fault. I do not blame President Obama for everything. But I think he disappointed a lot of people both liberals and conservatives.

Okay, good. It sounded like you were heaping all the evils of the world on him, there.

(30-08-2015 03:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  P.S.
I believe that there are many problems in poor black/minority communities. But racist cops is not one of them. There are very few bad cops. To blame cops is wrong and will solve nothing. But we want to solve problems. Don't we?

Sure we do.

But one of the first step in solving a problem is identifying it and its underlying causes, and that will lead to honest disagreements. You've taken racism in law enforcement off the table as being a possible problem, and done so with... very little basis, so far as you've presented.

As far as racism? It wouldn't surprise me if there were a small minority of cops that were racist in a classical sense -- that is, the Bull Connor, one-race-is-superior, keep-those-other-people-in-their-place variety. (Though the example of Bull Connor and his era does tell us that police officials aren't AUTOMATICALLY good people.) But I'll agree, most of them aren't like this.

(Of course, there is the overt racism dressed up to look nice, such as racial profiling, which many police organizations still argue for even if it's been declared unconstitutional. Even if the cops being told to implement this racist policy are themselves racism-free, the fact that so many are arguing for it does color perceptions.)

But that classical, overt racism isn't the only type of racism out there. Let's consider another type of racism... the type that subconsciously influences decision-making, rather than a deliberately and consciously held preference. For example, a recent study linked race to a decision to shoot. In it, participants were shown pictures of people holding various objects -- sometimes guns, but sometimes benign objects such as cell phones or soda cans -- and forced to make a split second decision of whether or not to shoot. Not only did the participants shoot in error more often when the picture they were shown was of a black man... they also shot with less hesitation. The scientists speculated that our culture is more likely, based on stereotypes at play in our culture, to link black men to guns than white men, and thus less brain function was used to process the "threat", resulting in a swifter and less-careful decision. This might affect a police officer's decision to shoot... or in a less charged situation, their gut call about whether a driver is a good kid or not and whether to let them off with a warning or give them a ticket.

Other studies show that blacks (or people just with "black-sounding" names) are less likely to be hired than white candidates, even when their resumes are identical. They're also less likely to secure credit from banks or be accepted to college, again, even controlling for credit rating and grades. Jurors in simulated trials are more likely to view them as dangerous and less likely to sympathize with them, even when the cases presented were identical, resulting in higher conviction rates. On and on. These aren't just anecdotes, these are scientific, peer-reviewed data. Less formal tests show cops are much more likely to approach a black man jimmying open a car door than a white man, and the difference in their response to a black man doing an "open carry protest" with an assault rifle compared to a white man was... extreme.

There's another type of racism to consider as well: structural racism. This isn't the type of racism that one person practices, but which society as a whole practices. Again, this doesn't have to be about conscious decisions. It could be a matter of simple demographics and neglect. One example is "broken windows" policing. Under this theory, the prevalence of smaller crimes (vandalism, breaking windows, jaywalking, etc) lead to an acceptance of bigger crimes, leading to the strategy of aggressive policing in neighborhoods with more broken windows... typically poorer neighborhoods.... where demographically speaking, there are more blacks. Another problem is policing for profit. This was a huge problem around St. Louis, including in Ferguson. The justice department report you were citing a few pages back hammered the police for treating the predominantly black population as a resource to be exploited. Other common tactics include civil forfeiture, for-profit prisons that exploit prisoner labor and don't focus on reform (because, after all, recidivism makes them more money), and official or unofficial quota systems, where cops have to decide where to focus their efforts, and decide to focus on the communities least able to fight back.

Then there's alienation. Often police don't live in the communities they police. They live in other neighborhoods or suburbs and commute to work. They don't, for example, have kids going to school with a suspect's kids, or shop at the same stores, or bump into each other at the gym. This impacts how you interact with other people. Middle-class cops are more likely to live in middle-class communities, and not be part of lower-class communities.

Again related to poverty, is how much money can be allocated to policing. Poorer communities mean less revenue, meaning lower police salaries, meaning a lower quality of officer attracted. Even when this is avoided (for example, by being different precincts in the same city operating under the same budget) police operating without quotas tend to prefer nicer, less hostile neighborhoods and will try to transfer there, and if transfers are merit-based then the poorer neighborhoods will wind up with lower quality officers.

But if you insist on just taking cops at their word, here's another cop to take at his word:





So, you want to talk about how to fix problems? Let's talk about how to fix problems. Here's some proposals regarding the police. What do you think?

(1) Hold police accountable. If a cop shoots someone, they should face a process similar to what a civilian faces if they shoot someone. Not harsher... but also not a whitewash. One example: a cop who shot a running suspect was given several days to think about his story and get his facts straight before being interviewed. A civilian would be questioned immediately.

(2) Better monitoring of police. This includes street cameras, body cameras, the elimination of laws that makes recording police with cell phones illegal, and the practice of police seizing any cell phone they see recording them. If the police are doing everything right, this should just showcase how awesome they are and restore trust in the community.

(3) Independent investigation and prosecution. One of the big sources of distrust in regard to both the Michael Brown case and the Eric Garner case was that the district attorneys considering prosecution were not sufficiently independent. They were seen as too reliant on the police for their day-to-day duties to risk pissing them off by prosecuting. Independent prosecutors would allow DAs to do their jobs without putting them in a conflict of interest.

(4) Equal enforcement regardless of location. If you're doing random stop-and-frisks in Harlem, do it on Wall Street too. You might not find a lot of pot, but you'll find a lot of traders with bags of cocaine and cards for escort services. Hey, they do high-adrenaline trading, they want uppers rather than downers.

Okay, that's a few proposals on how to deal with police. Now here's some proposals for society in general. What do you think?

(1) END THE DRUG WAR. Either make most recreational drugs legal the way that alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine are legal, or at least decriminalize them and focus on treatment rather than incarceration. Most of the violence associated with drugs arises not from the affects of the drugs themselves (though I will grant you some exceptions, like PCP and alcohol) but from their illegality and the penalties associated with them. While drug use may have significant negative impact on a person's life, that pales in comparison to the negative impact of long jail sentences -- to the extent that this is a disease (it isn't) and harsh enforcement is a cure (it's not), the cure is worse than the disease. Ending the drug war would have the secondary effect of largely defunding the drug cartels, ending the worst violence on our southern border and eliminating the threats to the stability of half the countries in this hemisphere. After all, who are we going to buy drugs from given a choice? The shady smugglers with poor quality control and guns and a predilection to shoot people who can't pay them, or the corner pharmacy who will, at worse, take us to court if we can't pay?

(2) PRESSURE HOLLYWOOD. Yeah, I'm targeting the liberals here. Bring pressure to stop typecasting blacks as muggers and whites as ordinary people. Better yet give small subsidies to producers who go against type. This could be a public project or a private one, I don't care. This could go a LONG way to eliminating stereotypes.

(3) FIX THE DAMN WINDOWS. If environmental factors lead to crime, fix the environmental factors. Don't send waves of cops into communities with broken windows. Send glass-makers instead.

(4) REDISTRIBUTE PUBLIC FUNDS BETWEEN COMMUNITIES. Schools in high-income neighborhoods are getting flooded with money while those in low-income neighborhoods are broke. Same for police, fire departments, health services, road services. EVERYTHING. I'm not talking about raising taxes. I'm talking about spending the existing tax money more fairly.

(5) FEWER GUNS. Argue ALL YOU WANT about good people with guns and stopping home invaders and so on. The plain, simple, well-documented, statistical FACT is that regions with fewer guns per capita have less crime. Do side-by-side comparisons of nations -- those with fewer guns have less crime. Do side-by-side comparisons of states in the U.S. -- those with fewer guns have less crime. This data has been in for over a decade, and the longer we go the more it gets confirmed! Bottom line, a bad person with a gun is far more empowered to do bad things by having a gun than a good person with a gun is empowered to do good things by having a gun. Now I don't care if it's gun control laws or something else. Buy them up and melt them down, maybe. Maybe a privately-funded effort to publicize the risk to your children that owning a gun carries. BUT GET THAT NUMBER DOWN, because every study we've got links it to high crime.

There's more we can get into, but that's a start. You want to focus on how to fix problems? There's some solutions. Have at it.
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30-08-2015, 08:05 PM
RE: Oppressive Secular Laws
(30-08-2015 04:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 03:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I respect you for your faith Alla. It is genuine. But your politics are seriously fucked up and in conflict with your faith.
No, they are not. I love people, even evil people. I even love "horrible" atheists and "horrible" liberals.
I just like to challenge people. Sometimes I like to challenge Christians by giving them arguments like if I was an atheist. I like to challenge conservatives by giving them arguments of liberals. I want to know their answers. How do they call it? playing Devil's advocate?
I sound like an angry person. But in reality I am not angry. I am sad. I am sad for what is going on in this world. I wish we all were more united.
I really like to read all your opinions and arguments. Many of them are very good. With some of them I disagree.
Soros is not evil man. I don't know him.
Black Lives Matter is not evil organization. I don't even know its members.
But I know one thing: destruction will never bring Justice and Peace.
I wish we all started to understand each other better. Or at least we can try.

If this is truly how you feel, then you really need to study some way to change everything in your approach and communication with people. Trying to study and learn how people actually are through sociology or psychology may suit you better because the manner you post 95% of the time contrasts all you emote int his post. If you don't believe that, then you're within that problem because you aren't seeing the blatant flaw of your behavior contrasting your goal.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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30-08-2015, 08:56 PM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2015 09:00 PM by Matrim Cauthon.)
RE: Oppressive Secular Laws
(30-08-2015 07:56 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  But if you insist on just taking cops at their word, here's another cop to take at his word:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5nPyf-0UMc]

Dude...I freaking LOVE this video... Start to finish. Wow.




“Narg know people come back somtimes. Narg wait. You no need sword. Put sword down. Narg no hurt.” – Narg
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