Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
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12-01-2013, 12:16 AM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2013 12:26 AM by Adenosis.)
Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
Theist says...
Quote:The world has order in it that we
didn't create. Order requires mind. There was order before there was
physical life, so there was mind before there was life. So the God and
Goddess must exist. [Image: nod.gif]

Atheist says...
Quote:What reason do you have to believe Order requires a Mind?

Egor says...
Quote:See, that's the best counter you have. You don't have an argument.
You're one of those idiot atheists who will only respond with: "Show me
proof." And then the second part of the tactic is to deny any proof
offered, or to change to concrete thinking so you can pretend the
obvious isn't so.

How the hell can you seriously not understand
that the concept of order is a mental concept. If we recognize it, we
have to have a mind. If it's present, it had to be made by a mind. Order
requires mind. There is no other proof of that. it's prima facie.

Then Atheist does epic face palm and says...
Quote:Nope, if I had proof of god I wouldn't be an atheist. With your logic, you could say anything is true without allowing it to be questioned.

Miniature Intangible Invisible Fairies are the cause of gravity, they make sure everything obeys the laws the spaghetti monster created at the instant of the big bang.

But your not allowed to question how I know this. See how that works?

The concept of order IS a mental concept, but that does not mean order is dependant on a mind. With that logic you could say anything is dependanton a mind.

So basically... Egor's site is not about debating. It is about making atheists look bad. He even has a thread called "The True Face Of Atheism", showing dude that went on a killing spree at the batman movie. The link is here http://www.veridican.org/forum/index.php?topic=35.0

Link to the debate... http://www.veridican.org/forum/index.php?topic=15.0

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12-01-2013, 12:51 AM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 12:16 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Atheist says...
Quote:What reason do you have to believe Order requires a Mind?

Egor says...
Quote:See, that's the best counter you have. You don't have an argument.
You're one of those idiot atheists who will only respond with: "Show me
proof." And then the second part of the tactic is to deny any proof
offered, or to change to concrete thinking so you can pretend the
obvious isn't so.

The Atheist is right in questioning, but Egor (I hate to say this) is also right in his assertion, but not for every Atheist.

The thing is, it's a good thing to ask us Theists the questions, it's not, however a very reasonable or even 'Scientific' approach to not use a counter-argument of sorts or a method of "testing" instead of repeatedly asking the same question without showing the Theist where he/she is wrong (or right, if that's the case). Instead of saying "Show me!" all the time, why not trace the reasoning to it's source and the use the laws of logic to test the idea and see if it fits or if it's logical? Just asking the same question all the time just seems like you honestly don't care about the conversation at all.

Egor is using the term "Proof" but should instead be using the term "Evidence". I don't believe there is undeniable proof because I believe every human can deny just about anything no matter the degree of obviousness.

In any case, of couse Egor is using a very unprofessional manner of conversation, which usually turns others off to the idea of civil or productive conversation. -_-
So I would respond with the many question asking-ness myself. Because when someone stops being reasonable, civil or productive in our conversation - I quickly learn that it doesn't matter what I say any longer, the person just doesn't want to hear it.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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12-01-2013, 12:56 AM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
To be fair, that's less a complaint about Egor's site, and more a complaint about Egor. Which is why I never bothered to check out the site in the first place.

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12-01-2013, 01:56 AM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 12:56 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  To be fair, that's less a complaint about Egor's site, and more a complaint about Egor. Which is why I never bothered to check out the site in the first place.

As far as the looks of the site itself, it's actually not that bad.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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12-01-2013, 01:59 AM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 01:56 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 12:56 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  To be fair, that's less a complaint about Egor's site, and more a complaint about Egor. Which is why I never bothered to check out the site in the first place.

As far as the looks of the site itself, it's actually not that bad.
The Vatican looks good too.....but it's still full of crazy.

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12-01-2013, 02:34 AM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 01:59 AM)Hamata k Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 01:56 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  As far as the looks of the site itself, it's actually not that bad.
The Vatican looks good too.....but it's still full of crazy.

TTA is full of people that disagree with me, but I like getting myself into the opposing perspective moreso than I do my own.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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12-01-2013, 03:09 AM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 02:34 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 01:59 AM)Hamata k Wrote:  The Vatican looks good too.....but it's still full of crazy.

TTA is full of people that disagree with me, but I like getting myself into the opposing perspective moreso than I do my own.

Egor's move to his own little controllable island of thought is telling. I guess he just got tired of people calling him out on his crap?

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12-01-2013, 03:56 AM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 03:09 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 02:34 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  TTA is full of people that disagree with me, but I like getting myself into the opposing perspective moreso than I do my own.

Egor's move to his own little controllable island of thought is telling. I guess he just got tired of people calling him out on his crap?

I kinda think he just got over-excited over the whole thing. It may be one of those things that eventually dies off. And I could be wrong and it just continues on until he is worshiped.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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12-01-2013, 08:02 AM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 03:56 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I kinda think he just got over-excited over the whole thing. It may be one of those things that eventually dies off. And I could be wrong and it just continues on until he is worshiped.
'Betcha Egor will believe something else in a few weeks/months again and shut down his forum. Good old flippity-flop Ed does that quite often. Drinking Beverage

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12-01-2013, 01:12 PM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 12:51 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  the Atheist is right in questioning, but Egor (I hate to say this) is also right in his assertion, but not for every Atheist.

Which assertion do you see Egor is right about? I don't see it.

Egor is creating a simple syllogism.

p1 - the world has order humans did not create
p2 - order requires a mind
p3 - there was order before life
C - therefore God

Every single one of his premises can be dismissed. He thinks all his premises are tautologies, but they are not.

p1 can be dismissed for a number of reasons. The universe may have no order. In other words, order is just chaos that humans find useful. He is assuming that just because we find patterns in the chaos, that they actually exist.

p2 can be dismissed because he is asserting that order requires a mind without evidence for this assertion. We don't know this to be true. He is trying to extrapolate the human mind's ability to create order, to the universe itself. This is a fallacy of composition.

p3 can be dismissed because it doesn't matter whether order existed before life or not. His assertion still assumes that order requires a mind.

The atheist coorectly points out that Egor's syllogism is invalid my making an equally invalid one using "Miniature Intangible Invisible Fairies".

Please correct me if I am wrong.
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