Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
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12-01-2013, 02:17 PM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2013 03:35 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 01:12 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 12:51 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  the Atheist is right in questioning, but Egor (I hate to say this) is also right in his assertion, but not for every Atheist.

Which assertion do you see Egor is right about? I don't see it.

Egor is creating a simple syllogism.

p1 - the world has order humans did not create
p2 - order requires a mind
p3 - there was order before life
C - therefore God

Every single one of his premises can be dismissed. He thinks all his premises are tautologies, but they are not.

p1 can be dismissed for a number of reasons. The universe may have no order. In other words, order is just chaos that humans find useful. He is assuming that just because we find patterns in the chaos, that they actually exist.

p2 can be dismissed because he is asserting that order requires a mind without evidence for this assertion. We don't know this to be true. He is trying to extrapolate the human mind's ability to create order, to the universe itself. This is a fallacy of composition.

p3 can be dismissed because it doesn't matter whether order existed before life or not. His assertion still assumes that order requires a mind.

The atheist coorectly points out that Egor's syllogism is invalid my making an equally invalid one using "Miniature Intangible Invisible Fairies".

Please correct me if I am wrong.

p1 and p3 both seem easy to dismiss as not being self-evident. p2 does not seem as easy to dismiss. What does order look like without an observer to recognize (or perhaps even realize) it? But even admitting p2 it leads to an entirely different conclusion than Egor's.

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12-01-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
The other thing to consider is that just because something can be perceived in a manner, does not mean that is necessarily how it is. Something can seem orderly but at it's core quite chaotic. As humans we like order (most of us) and it's quite natural to look for order in things so we can understand them. It may very well be a huge reason we haven't yet found a unified theory of everything that we can 100% agree upon. I mean shit, look at quantum mechanics.. the idea that something can be many places or anywhere at the same time at the same level in different dimensions. Nothing orderly about that.

We can try and make sense of it... or even try and explain it in an orderly way, but the function of it and how things work is not necessarily orderly. That would be more of a perception, would it not?

Is the universe orderly? Is there order in a black hole? Is there order in particles necessarily?
How do you know?
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12-01-2013, 02:27 PM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 02:24 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Is the universe orderly? Is there order in a black hole? Is there order in particles necessarily?
How do you know?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...092939.htm
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12-01-2013, 02:32 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2013 02:41 PM by Logisch.)
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 02:27 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 02:24 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Is the universe orderly? Is there order in a black hole? Is there order in particles necessarily?
How do you know?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...092939.htm
Consider I'll go read it now. I may come back and put my foot in my mouth.

(edit) - ok I read the article and the source article. The wording is a bit odd but in a nutshell, they're observing an unexplained phenomena (that they can replicate). But at the core of that, what causes it? So far it seems even they do not know. So I suppose one could call that a form of order in plasma, but they still don't know what causes it.

Source Nature Physics - Self-organized electromagnetic field structures in laser-produced counter-streaming plasmas
Quote:These surprising structures, formed by a yet unexplained mechanism, are predominantly oriented transverse to the primary flow direction, extend for much larger distances than the intrinsic plasma spatial scales and persist for much longer than the plasma kinetic timescales. Our results challenge existing models of counter-streaming plasmas and can be used to better understand large-scale and long-time plasma self-organization.

Unfortunately, I'm no expert in the field of plasma physics. But I can see what you mean. So that brings some form of "order" to particles. What brings the "order" to the mechanism responsible for causing that to work though? lol

Stuff like that is interesting to me.
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12-01-2013, 05:56 PM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 02:32 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Unfortunately, I'm no expert in the field of plasma physics. But I can see what you mean. So that brings some form of "order" to particles. What brings the "order" to the mechanism responsible for causing that to work though? lol

Observation, duh.

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12-01-2013, 06:39 PM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
I think we all need to pray for Egor.

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12-01-2013, 06:46 PM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 02:17 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 01:12 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  Which assertion do you see Egor is right about? I don't see it.

Egor is creating a simple syllogism.

p1 - the world has order humans did not create
p2 - order requires a mind
p3 - there was order before life
C - therefore God

Every single one of his premises can be dismissed. He thinks all his premises are tautologies, but they are not.

p1 can be dismissed for a number of reasons. The universe may have no order. In other words, order is just chaos that humans find useful. He is assuming that just because we find patterns in the chaos, that they actually exist.

p2 can be dismissed because he is asserting that order requires a mind without evidence for this assertion. We don't know this to be true. He is trying to extrapolate the human mind's ability to create order, to the universe itself. This is a fallacy of composition.

p3 can be dismissed because it doesn't matter whether order existed before life or not. His assertion still assumes that order requires a mind.

The atheist coorectly points out that Egor's syllogism is invalid my making an equally invalid one using "Miniature Intangible Invisible Fairies".

Please correct me if I am wrong.

p1 and p3 both seem easy to dismiss as not being self-evident. p2 does not seem as easy to dismiss. What does order look like without an observer to recognize (or perhaps even realize) it? But even admitting p2 it leads to an entirely conclusion than Egor's.

P2 is easily dismissed: crystals.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-01-2013, 11:57 AM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 12:16 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Theist says...
Quote:The world has order in it that we
didn't create. Order requires mind. There was order before there was
physical life, so there was mind before there was life. So the God and
Goddess must exist. [Image: nod.gif]
The universe has physical laws. Physical laws create order, therefore physical laws create minds.
Minds create ideas. Ideas exist only in minds. Ideas do not physically exist.
God is an idea, therefore Minds created god. God only exists in the mind. God does not physically exist.

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13-01-2013, 12:44 PM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 06:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  P2 is easily dismissed: crystals.

No no NO! CHARAS!!
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14-01-2013, 06:28 AM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 01:12 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 12:51 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  the Atheist is right in questioning, but Egor (I hate to say this) is also right in his assertion, but not for every Atheist.

Which assertion do you see Egor is right about? I don't see it.

Egor is creating a simple syllogism.

p1 - the world has order humans did not create
p2 - order requires a mind
p3 - there was order before life
C - therefore God

Every single one of his premises can be dismissed. He thinks all his premises are tautologies, but they are not.

p1 can be dismissed for a number of reasons. The universe may have no order. In other words, order is just chaos that humans find useful. He is assuming that just because we find patterns in the chaos, that they actually exist.

p2 can be dismissed because he is asserting that order requires a mind without evidence for this assertion. We don't know this to be true. He is trying to extrapolate the human mind's ability to create order, to the universe itself. This is a fallacy of composition.

p3 can be dismissed because it doesn't matter whether order existed before life or not. His assertion still assumes that order requires a mind.

The atheist coorectly points out that Egor's syllogism is invalid my making an equally invalid one using "Miniature Intangible Invisible Fairies".

Please correct me if I am wrong.

No Simon, I was not saying he was correct in his assertion about order being evidence of a mind. I was saying that he is in his assertion about some Atheists dismissing every argument with just repeated question-asking. Asking tons of questions is great, but actually countering the argument with logic and reason will help to progress the conversation to a greater level.
Anyways, now that I've looked at this a few times, I don't really think it's here nor there.
One philosophy that I am starting to adopt is: One way to find that one does not care about my argument is that they will hardly have their own. It's when I have realised this about the person I am in conversation with that I need to move on.

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