Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
14-01-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
Asking questions is the first step in understanding what someone is claiming.
If I claim that flemix is responsible for diverting the positive ions in the rotational vortex, you can't expect people to simply come up with a counter argument when the terms aren't well defined or have any contextual meaning.

When someone uses vague terms or broad based terms like the word "order" and "mind", questions are going to be asked to obtain a more precise idea about what the person is meaning. Where one person sees order, another may only see chaos. Others may not even accept that minds exist.

If your argument is "order requires mind" then the counter argument is that "order does not require mind"
Examples: snowflakes. These crystals form into an order that we can observe and there is no mind present.

Now if he means that observing and naming something as orderly requires a mind, then yes I agree.
Without anyone to observe then there is noone to perceive order or name it as such.

A mind (pron.: /ˈmnd/) is the complex of cognitive faculties that enables consciousness, thinking, reasoning, perception, and judgement—a characteristic of human beings, but which also may apply to other life forms

And his statements seem to contradict each other
1. Order requires mind
2. Order existed before mind

So now one must inquire what he means when he uses the word mind, because we only know about biological minds that are alive through a very long process of evolution.

Sometimes asking questions is the very first step before you can even make a counter argument

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Rahn127's post
15-01-2013, 04:01 PM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
Some great replies. By the way, Atheist is me lol

I am aware that I didn't have a 'counter argument', I just didn't feel that it was necissary to waste a lot of time on something this stupid. Nevertheless I felt the urge to give a short comment. The original assertion that was made was just an opinion, and since this was stated in the sub-forum "Proof of God", I was curious how they thought they knew order requires mind. I never did get an answer.

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-01-2013, 04:18 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2013 04:32 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(14-01-2013 06:28 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  No Simon, I was not saying he was correct in his assertion about order being evidence of a mind. I was saying that he is in his assertion about some Atheists dismissing every argument with just repeated question-asking. Asking tons of questions is great, but actually countering the argument with logic and reason will help to progress the conversation to a greater level.
What you assert to be the dismissal of arguments is actually the standard procedure of challenging them. For example, if you were to argue that order requires a mind, I neither need to counter your argument with reason and logic, nor do I have to point out its factual inaccuracies and logical fallacies to advance the discussion. It suffices to be skeptical of the claim and asking questions like "What evidence do you have to support this claim?" or "Why do you think that this is true?".

[Image: IcJnQOT.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Vosur's post
15-01-2013, 04:43 PM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(12-01-2013 12:51 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  The thing is, it's a good thing to ask us Theists the questions, it's not, however a very reasonable or even 'Scientific' approach to not use a counter-argument of sorts or a method of "testing" instead of repeatedly asking the same question without showing the Theist where he/she is wrong (or right, if that's the case). Instead of saying "Show me!" all the time, why not trace the reasoning to it's source and the use the laws of logic to test the idea and see if it fits or if it's logical? Just asking the same question all the time just seems like you honestly don't care about the conversation at all.
In the eight months I've been on here, I have not once encountered an atheist (or theist) who has acted this way. While I do think that your criticism is valid per se, I don't know anyone on TTA to whom it would apply.

I am thus left wondering myself why you'd bring it up in the first place. Consider

[Image: IcJnQOT.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Vosur's post
15-01-2013, 06:06 PM
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(15-01-2013 04:43 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 12:51 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  The thing is, it's a good thing to ask us Theists the questions, it's not, however a very reasonable or even 'Scientific' approach to not use a counter-argument of sorts or a method of "testing" instead of repeatedly asking the same question without showing the Theist where he/she is wrong (or right, if that's the case). Instead of saying "Show me!" all the time, why not trace the reasoning to it's source and the use the laws of logic to test the idea and see if it fits or if it's logical? Just asking the same question all the time just seems like you honestly don't care about the conversation at all.
In the eight months I've been on here, I have not once encountered an atheist (or theist) who has acted this way. While I do think that your criticism is valid per se, I don't know anyone on TTA to whom it would apply.

I am thus left wondering myself why you'd bring it up in the first place. Consider
I guess I'm referring to Atheists I've encountered and watched that are not on this forum. So far, I haven't really seen Atheists here on this Forum really act that way either.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-01-2013, 07:16 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2013 07:21 PM by Simon Moon.)
RE: Order implies the God and Goddess. How beastly is this argument.
(14-01-2013 06:28 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  No Simon, I was not saying he was correct in his assertion about order being evidence of a mind. I was saying that he is in his assertion about some Atheists dismissing every argument with just repeated question-asking. Asking tons of questions is great, but actually countering the argument with logic and reason will help to progress the conversation to a greater level.
Anyways, now that I've looked at this a few times, I don't really think it's here nor there.
One philosophy that I am starting to adopt is: One way to find that one does not care about my argument is that they will hardly have their own. It's when I have realised this about the person I am in conversation with that I need to move on.


I see. I reread your post and it looks like I had a problem with my reading comprehension. Thank you for correcting me.

There are legitimate reasons, that sometimes when debating theists, asking a lot of questions is necessary. They will make claims or state a premise in their argument, that they assume (usually based on presuppositionalism) is true and should be accepted by their opponent without question.

If you allow them to continue without questioning their claims or premises as they make them, you will get to the end of their argument and have to begin to unpack the entire thing, to tell them why their argument fails. It is better to question early, so both parties can decide whether the premises or the claims should be accepted as valid.

Asking the questions is part of the process of countering the argument.

If both parties are intellectually honest, and both parties accept all the premises to be true, and the argument is logically valid (contains no fallacies), then one will be persuaded to accept the conclusion of the argument. That is how legitimate debate works.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Simon Moon's post
Post Reply

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  The Satan Argument cre8ivmind 13 222 Today 05:05 PM
Last Post: WindyCityJazz
  How would you deal with this argument? diddo97 49 778 24-05-2014 05:03 AM
Last Post: Rahn127
  The argument from evil proves that the world is horrible? WimpyPete 145 1,864 20-05-2014 02:38 PM
Last Post: WimpyPete
  A Deconstruction of the Moral Argument Reltzik 121 2,293 14-05-2014 05:49 PM
Last Post: Leo
  My thoughts on the whole Atheists vs. Theists argument Dobrev 11 340 09-05-2014 12:41 PM
Last Post: djhall
  Do non-believers need God in order to call themselves Atheist? JDog554 71 992 08-05-2014 12:41 PM
Last Post: TrainWreck
  What is wrong with this argument JDog554 24 348 01-05-2014 11:26 AM
Last Post: Reltzik
Forum Jump: