Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
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07-10-2015, 05:21 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(07-10-2015 02:44 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 02:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Freedom of speech is a constitutional right. Doesn't mean you can shout "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

But seriously:
How do you justify reifying "the market" as anything other than a sum total of individual interactions? An idealised market demands at least lip service to the idea of equal access and participation. If prejudicial beliefs predominate and statistically significant portions of any given market reflect those beliefs, those things are impossible.

I was in a bar once, down in San Diego, CA. I had just turned 21, so this must have been 15-16 years ago. I was in the Navy at the time. I was drinking a beer and talking to the bartender, who happened to be the bar owner. Somehow we started talking about religion, and I mentioned that I was an atheist. He immediately snapped, began yelling at me to get out of his bar. Said he didn't serve people that didn't believe in God.

Not once did I even think about filing a lawsuit. Not once did it even register to me that what he did was wrong. All I could think was, well, its his bar, I'll follow his rules and leave. I really had no concept that I was wronged in any way. In fact, I remember thinking he was very brave for standing up for what he believes in. Kind of stupid, because another bar got the rest of my paycheck that night.


Your feels are not equal to law.
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07-10-2015, 05:28 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(01-10-2015 08:24 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  First the state of Oregon decided to infringe up the freedom of this couple by compelling them to bake a cake they didn't want to bake and then further infringed upon their freedom by court order forbidding them from talking about their refusal to bake said cake.

So much for individual freedom in Oregon. I won't do business there. Facist pigs they are.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/01/ore...tcmp=hpbt4

Anti discrimination laws exist for a reason. If you went to buy something and you were told that place wouldn't serve you because you were an atheist, you would be upset. If they further doxxed you and outed you as an atheist, and that resulted in threats of bodily harm and death so bad that you feared for the life of your child, would you just let it go? I wouldn't, not for a second.

Freedom of speech means that the government can't do anything to you are a result of how you express yourself, it does not mean that you are immune from the consequences of that self expression.

That which doesn't kill me will soon regret its failure.
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07-10-2015, 05:42 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(07-10-2015 05:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 02:44 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I was in a bar once, down in San Diego, CA. I had just turned 21, so this must have been 15-16 years ago. I was in the Navy at the time. I was drinking a beer and talking to the bartender, who happened to be the bar owner. Somehow we started talking about religion, and I mentioned that I was an atheist. He immediately snapped, began yelling at me to get out of his bar. Said he didn't serve people that didn't believe in God.

Not once did I even think about filing a lawsuit. Not once did it even register to me that what he did was wrong. All I could think was, well, its his bar, I'll follow his rules and leave. I really had no concept that I was wronged in any way. In fact, I remember thinking he was very brave for standing up for what he believes in. Kind of stupid, because another bar got the rest of my paycheck that night.


Your feels are not equal to law.

No doubt.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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07-10-2015, 05:44 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(07-10-2015 02:44 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I was in a bar once, down in San Diego, CA. I had just turned 21, so this must have been 15-16 years ago. I was in the Navy at the time. I was drinking a beer and talking to the bartender, who happened to be the bar owner. Somehow we started talking about religion, and I mentioned that I was an atheist. He immediately snapped, began yelling at me to get out of his bar. Said he didn't serve people that didn't believe in God.

Not once did I even think about filing a lawsuit. Not once did it even register to me that what he did was wrong. All I could think was, well, its his bar, I'll follow his rules and leave. I really had no concept that I was wronged in any way. In fact, I remember thinking he was very brave for standing up for what he believes in. Kind of stupid, because another bar got the rest of my paycheck that night.

When I was in the USN in San Diego I spent my money on hookers. When I told them I was an atheist they'd take it as a challenge, "Oh I'm gonna make you see God fatboy."

#sigh
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07-10-2015, 05:57 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(07-10-2015 05:44 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 02:44 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I was in a bar once, down in San Diego, CA. I had just turned 21, so this must have been 15-16 years ago. I was in the Navy at the time. I was drinking a beer and talking to the bartender, who happened to be the bar owner. Somehow we started talking about religion, and I mentioned that I was an atheist. He immediately snapped, began yelling at me to get out of his bar. Said he didn't serve people that didn't believe in God.

Not once did I even think about filing a lawsuit. Not once did it even register to me that what he did was wrong. All I could think was, well, its his bar, I'll follow his rules and leave. I really had no concept that I was wronged in any way. In fact, I remember thinking he was very brave for standing up for what he believes in. Kind of stupid, because another bar got the rest of my paycheck that night.

When I was in the USN in San Diego I spent my money on hookers. When I told them I was an atheist they'd take it as a challenge, "Oh I'm gonna make you see God fatboy."

Hopefully not across the border. I've heard bad things...

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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08-10-2015, 12:12 AM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(07-10-2015 09:32 AM)cjlr Wrote:  When racial discrimination was legal and widespread there was no "evidence that blacks wouldn't be served by the market", but there was staggeringly omnipresent evidence that they were underserved by endemic inequality.

Endemic inequality only happened to the blacks because after slavery Jim Crow laws were implemented stripping them of their power, and "prevailing wage" laws were implemented to keep the blacks from undercutting white labor.

The world would be very different if blacks were allowed to participate in the market after slavery. But they were shut out of it because of laws and thus never had the opportunity to overcome discrimination.
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08-10-2015, 12:15 AM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(07-10-2015 02:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Waa waa waa. Wrong again, Blowjob. People who set up public businesses in the US cannot discriminate on the basis some factors, whom they serve. They don't have to do this. They chose to go into this line of business. If they get away with this, they can do anything, such as not bake cakes for blacks, or inter-racial couples. If they don't want to accept the rules for commerce, they can do something else. No one is taking any survival right from them, (nice try, Gonzo). They can accept the conditions under which businesses are required to operate or go into a different line of work.

Your position that people do not have the right to exchange their labor for the means of survival unless they conform to certain arbitrary rules is asinine.
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08-10-2015, 12:19 AM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(07-10-2015 02:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  What if many business owners refuse to serve you? What if most do? In the stronger case of a local or natural monopoly the opinions of a single person might dicate your access; is that fair? Is that acceptable?

This is not the case with gays. You don't need anti discrimination laws to ensure they are served by the market. You need them to prevent them from being butthurt.

(07-10-2015 02:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  In other words - "there was once an instance in which discrimination against me did not meaningfully affect me" "there are no instances in which discrimination against an individual/group can meaningfully affect them".

When the gay couple could go right down the street and get a wedding cake, the only way the christian bakers discrimination affected them in a meaningful way was to make them upset because someone didn't accept their marriage as a legitimate marriage.
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08-10-2015, 12:21 AM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(08-10-2015 12:15 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 02:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Waa waa waa. Wrong again, Blowjob. People who set up public businesses in the US cannot discriminate on the basis some factors, whom they serve. They don't have to do this. They chose to go into this line of business. If they get away with this, they can do anything, such as not bake cakes for blacks, or inter-racial couples. If they don't want to accept the rules for commerce, they can do something else. No one is taking any survival right from them, (nice try, Gonzo). They can accept the conditions under which businesses are required to operate or go into a different line of work.

Your position that people do not have the right to exchange their labor for the means of survival unless they conform to certain arbitrary rules is asinine.

So now laws and governments are asinine?

No, the only thing here that is asinine is your ignorant and uninformed opinions.

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08-10-2015, 12:23 AM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(07-10-2015 05:28 PM)WarGoddess Wrote:  Anti discrimination laws exist for a reason. If you went to buy something and you were told that place wouldn't serve you because you were an atheist, you would be upset. If they further doxxed you and outed you as an atheist, and that resulted in threats of bodily harm and death so bad that you feared for the life of your child, would you just let it go? I wouldn't, not for a second.

Freedom of speech means that the government can't do anything to you are a result of how you express yourself, it does not mean that you are immune from the consequences of that self expression.

You keep forgetting that it was the gay couple who brought this to the public's attention. They were more than happy to bring harassment onto the christian bakers. Once they began a public campaign to ruin the baker's lives they shouldn't have been surprised when the bakers responded publicly.
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