Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
01-10-2015, 10:05 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(01-10-2015 09:40 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 09:27 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  You're probably too young to remember this but there was a time that businesses refused to serve black people and cited religious beliefs and the Bible as their reason. It doesn't matter if there is another business down the street that they could have gone to. That's not the point. If you open a business that serves the public you cannot discriminate against a segment of the human population.

If businesses were free to discriminate against a segment of the population because of religious reasons, whether the owner is Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu or Buddhist our country would become a segmented society that serves only those we agree with.

If you want to live in a country that works this way, move. I do not.

Federal law would not apply to a mom and pop business because when the civil rights act of 1964 was passed the Federal Government still cared about the rights of individuals. You had to have X number of employees before the law applied to you. I can't remember what X was...I think it was 25.....maybe 15.

But that being said, you could have made a good faith argument that the market wasn't serving blacks. However you cannot make that argument here because by your own testimony there was a baker right down the street willing to serve gay couples.

This is clearly a case of state imposing its values on people for no good reason other than it wants people to conform to its values.

However, if the bakery down the street served gay people but refused to serve little people (because of some obscure religious belief) then discrimination is allowed in one case or another. And if this kind of compartmentalized discrimination is allowed in one business then it's allowed in all business, big or small and our country becomes a society separated by commerce.

That's one of many reasons why it's illegal.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2015, 10:06 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(01-10-2015 09:55 PM)ZoraPrime Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 09:44 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Translation: I don't have a counter argument so instead I will criticize the existence of the thread itself.

Zora, you are perhaps the the smartest person on this forum. I'd rank you #1 in terms of raw intellect in this entire forum. You're better than this shit post you made here.

I'm genuinely convinced that nothing I say here will change your mind where your knowledge on the subject is so fundamentally flawed (e.g. not understanding that anti-discrimination does not have a conscious objection exception). Everyone else in this thread has gotten that; anything I say is either on deaf ears or preaching to the choir.

Laws which allowed slavery did not have a conscious objection exception either. Your point is impotent.....so you should have no expectation that I will be swayed by it. The fact that no exception exists in the Oregonian law doesn't make the law right or just. Individual people have the right to be free to exchange their goods and services....including their labor.....for the means of survival when and where and with who they wish. Do you agree or not agree? A gay baker should not be forced by the state to bake a cake which states, "God hates fags" just because the West Borrow Baptist churchs wants it and they have freedom of speech/religion.

It might be different if we were talking about a corporation, but this wasn't a corporation. This was a couple excercising their rights as individuals until those rights were trampled upon by the state.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2015, 10:10 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(01-10-2015 10:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 09:55 PM)ZoraPrime Wrote:  I'm genuinely convinced that nothing I say here will change your mind where your knowledge on the subject is so fundamentally flawed (e.g. not understanding that anti-discrimination does not have a conscious objection exception). Everyone else in this thread has gotten that; anything I say is either on deaf ears or preaching to the choir.

Laws which allowed slavery did not have a conscious objection exception either. Your point is impotent.....so you should have no expectation that I will be swayed by it. The fact that no exception exists in the Oregonian law doesn't make the law right or just. Individual people have the right to be free to exchange their goods and services....including their labor.....for the means of survival when and where and with who they wish. Do you agree or not agree?

It might be different if we were talking about a corporation, but this wasn't a corporation. This was a couple excercising their rights as individuals until those rights were trampled upon by the state.

They were not obligated or operating as individuals you fool. they were obligated as they were operating a business licensed to serve the public. Nothing was 'trampled on". And it's not "conscious objection", you ignoramus, it's a conscientious objection. There are laws (like paying taxes and not discriminating) that all are bound by. No one is forcing them to run a bakery open to the public.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
01-10-2015, 10:11 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(01-10-2015 10:05 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 09:40 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Federal law would not apply to a mom and pop business because when the civil rights act of 1964 was passed the Federal Government still cared about the rights of individuals. You had to have X number of employees before the law applied to you. I can't remember what X was...I think it was 25.....maybe 15.

But that being said, you could have made a good faith argument that the market wasn't serving blacks. However you cannot make that argument here because by your own testimony there was a baker right down the street willing to serve gay couples.

This is clearly a case of state imposing its values on people for no good reason other than it wants people to conform to its values.

However, if the bakery down the street served gay people but refused to serve little people (because of some obscure religious belief) then discrimination is allowed in one case or another. And if this kind of compartmentalized discrimination is allowed in one business then it's allowed in all business, big or small and our country becomes a society separated by commerce.

That's one of many reasons why it's illegal.

So basically you want to trample on peoples rights just in case the market won;t serve them.....that is what your argument amounts too. I think you need to show the market would not serve the gay couple before you start restricting other peoples freedoms.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2015, 10:12 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(01-10-2015 10:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 10:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Laws which allowed slavery did not have a conscious objection exception either. Your point is impotent.....so you should have no expectation that I will be swayed by it. The fact that no exception exists in the Oregonian law doesn't make the law right or just. Individual people have the right to be free to exchange their goods and services....including their labor.....for the means of survival when and where and with who they wish. Do you agree or not agree?

It might be different if we were talking about a corporation, but this wasn't a corporation. This was a couple excercising their rights as individuals until those rights were trampled upon by the state.

They were not obligated or operating as individuals you fool. they were obligated as they were operating a business licensed to serve the public. Nothing was 'trampled on". And it's not "conscious objection", you ignoramus, it's a conscientious objection. There are laws (like paying taxes and not discriminating) that all are bound by. No one is forcing them to run a bakery open to the public.

I forgive you for calling me an ignoramus and for not knowing that individuals can engage in business. This was true even before there was a state.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2015, 10:15 PM (This post was last modified: 01-10-2015 10:19 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(01-10-2015 09:11 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 09:02 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Another bakery, Bella's Cupcakes, just down the street was supportive of same sex marriage and sent us free cupcakes while we were protesting and I've bought pastries from them ever since. Amazing cupcakes too. I'm gonna give them a little plug just for being nice to ALL humans.

This is an example of exactly why this shit pisses me off. The state needs a very good reason to restrict individual freedom. Preventing butthurt isn't a good reason. Now suppose everyone refused to serve gays....then I could see a compelling state interest in making this couple serve gays. But that is not the case. This couple could have simply walked down the street and got served by the bakery that sent you the cupcakes.

What we have here is just a case of the state imposing its morality on others. Fining those that don't comply with state mandated morality....and then putting a gag order upon them to prevent them from talking about it.

We don't live in a free country anymore.

And a black person in the 40s could of walked down the street to eat at a different restaurant. They can go to different schools, it's fine it's their school.. oh so the school is significantly worse? So what it's their school. You don't know that the cake shop down the street doesn't suck in their opinion or charge $400 more for a wedding cake. It's your ignorance that wants to constantly not view the reality of a overall situation on what factors cna be at play but merely take it as an insult. This isn't "individual" freedom it's taken away from that because it's a business being ran. They don't have the same individual rights if they were merely making cakes and giving them to people. That's something you seem to ignore here. Individuals operating in a business doesn't make it not a business situation. You want to ride an airplane, you give up rights. You want to be in a public building courthouse/schools you are giving up some rights. Owning/operating a business works the same way.

You're a misinformed or delusional man if you ever think there ever was some "free" country that was lived in called a country. That's how social order has worked for the entity of humanity... even in real humanity or crazy religious version of God making the rule, it's the same thing only it's gods rule given to Adam/Eve Cain/Abel and such.

What you do with the cake shouldn't matter to the cake seller. If you plan to smash it in someones face or have sex with the cake it really shouldn't matter. Why does the individual use matter to the baker? They weren't making a face-smashing cake or a sex-cake if that was the case. It's just a cake, just like it's not a gay wedding cake to be used in a gay wedding. It's a cake.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like ClydeLee's post
01-10-2015, 10:16 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(01-10-2015 10:12 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 10:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  They were not obligated or operating as individuals you fool. they were obligated as they were operating a business licensed to serve the public. Nothing was 'trampled on". And it's not "conscious objection", you ignoramus, it's a conscientious objection. There are laws (like paying taxes and not discriminating) that all are bound by. No one is forcing them to run a bakery open to the public.

I forgive you for calling me an ignoramus and for not knowing that individuals can engage in business. This was true even before there was a state.

Totally irrelevant you ignoramus. Taking out a license to operate a business, (which they freely did), means they accept that they will subject themselves to civil laws regarding public businesses. Only whiney bitches can claim foul here. And you are one. Tongue They knew what they were getting in to. If they can refuse gays, anyone can refuse any one, for any reason.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
01-10-2015, 10:17 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(01-10-2015 10:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  A gay baker should not be forced by the state to bake a cake which states, "God hates fags" just because the West Borrow Baptist churchs wants it and they have freedom of speech/religion.
I agree, they shouldn't be forced. I wonder what would gay(owner of bakery) do? would he bake a cake with statement "God hates gay marriage"
Not gays. God loves every child of His.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2015, 10:18 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(01-10-2015 10:17 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 10:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  A gay baker should not be forced by the state to bake a cake which states, "God hates fags" just because the West Borrow Baptist churchs wants it and they have freedom of speech/religion.
I agree, they shouldn't be forced. I wonder what would gay(owner of bakery) do? would he bake a cake with statement "God hates gay marriage"
Not gays. God loves every child of His.

Who told you, Alla, that you speak for a god ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
01-10-2015, 10:20 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(01-10-2015 10:16 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 10:12 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I forgive you for calling me an ignoramus and for not knowing that individuals can engage in business. This was true even before there was a state.

Totally irrelevant you ignoramus. Taking out a license to operate a business, (which they freely did), means they accept that they will subject themselves to civil laws regarding public businesses. Only whiney bitches can claim foul here. And you are one. Tongue They knew what they were getting in to. If they can refuse gays, anyone can refuse any one, for any reason.

People don't take out business licenses freely. They do it because they are afraid of the consequences of not having the licences. I forgive you for calling me an ignoramus again. You do not behave very well for an atheist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: